Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[lisasalinger]

Maybe the jeans belonged to another woman? That would certainly not go over well when found.

 

[zwiebel]

OP knew he had very little time to set the scene. And he was having to think what the scene was, at the time he was setting it, in my opinion. Considering that, I think he did quite well.

I do think this man was a killer waiting to happen. But that's just my opinion. If he's freed, something else will happen too, in the future. Again, my opinion. If I had a daughter and he got within a mile of her......

 

[zwiebel]

Maybe the jeans belonged to another woman? That would certainly not go over well when found.

They don't look as though they fell there to me. They look as though they were carefully placed there?

 

[lisasalinger]

They don't look as though they fell there to me. They look as though they were carefully placed there?

I've looked at the outdoor photos that were shown and it's unclear to me where exactly they are in relation to the bathroom window, or any other part of the house. Do you know?

 

[zwiebel]

I've looked at the outdoor photos that were shown and it's unclear to me where exactly they are in relation to the bathroom window, or any other part of the house. Do you know?

No. It is paved, so I am presuming there is a terrace area all around the home. I'll have to go search the orginal poster, who watched the tv stream and caught the shot. Maybe there is a clue.

 

[Rumpole]

Gunshots that killed Reeva

Slots into your timeline nicely. Pinpoints the time of the actual shots, as opposed to the later set of noises that Burger(s) heard at 3:17

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

3:15:51 a.m.- Dr Stipp made a call at 3:15:51 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from. (time verified by phone records reviewed during Stipp's testimony)

 

[kittychi]

I think she does though. The burden of proof is on the state. If they fail to make their case then you must give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant and accept their version as "true" whether you believe it or not. At this point, I don't think we can say for sure who's version is true. Unfortunately, the state has fallen just short of totally convincing me. His neighbor hearing bangs at 3:08 totally corroborates what Stipp heard. And this kind of corroborates Oscar's version. In fact, all the evidence does. There were two sets of bands. The banging of the bat and the gunshots might very well have sounded the same from a distance. There are bullet holes through the broken panel, also corroborating Oscar's version. I can't deny this. Now, who knows, maybe he made up a story to for around the real version. But that's speculation.

If I were a juror and this happened on the US, I would have no choice but to find him not guilty of premeditated murder. I would vote for guilty of manslaughter, though. He acted recklessly, any way you slice it, and took the life of an innocent. I think he should be held in some way accountable for that. The poor women, the pain she must have felt when those bullets ripped her apart. There must be retribution for that.

BBM: How are you accounting for "blood-curdling screams" heard by neighbors? Do you think that has been accounted for in Oscar's statement? Was that Oscar screaming?

 

[zwiebel]

I've looked at the outdoor photos that were shown and it's unclear to me where exactly they are in relation to the bathroom window, or any other part of the house. Do you know?

It was LemonMousse who found the jeans pic.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #9 - 14.03.18, Day 12


Here is a link to the post leading to the original pic. Maybe a little clearer?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #9 - 14.03.18, Day 12

 

[TorisMom003]

Wasn't it Burger who said she heard four gunshots that were bang.........bangbangbang? If so, then what she heard lines up with what the ballistic expert stated today in court. That lends credibility to her testimony, IMO. Dr. Stipp said that he heard 3 "shots". The door showed two strikes from the cricket bat. The metal plate on the tub showed damage as well, looked like it had been hit at least once. Perhaps OP used the cricket bat first on the door, after hitting the metal plate on the tub, then went for his gun, fired four shots through the door into the toilet area, then used his hands to finish taking the panel out of the door that he had just bashed twice with the cricket bat and fired the shots through.

 

[TorisMom003]

OP and his defense team also have a large hurdle to overcome since the questionnaire that he filled out in order to purchase guns was admitted in as evidence. Based on his answers to that questionnaire, OP knew without doubt that he was to NOT shoot blindly into a room without seeing who/what he was shooting at. OP also knew that he was not to shoot (at) someone that was not posing an immediate danger to him or anyone that was with him.

 

[minor4th]

His claim to stumpdom is to reinforce his actions were caused by his sense of vulnerability .....whether limited....2nd reference.....(in his first reference to his stumps in the affidavit was mobile ) or extremely vulnerable <-----last reference to being on stumps.

But, but, but ... the state agrees that he was on his stumps when he fired the shots. So that is true, and not a fabrication to invoke the "vulnerable" defense. But now some are suggesting that he was on his stumps when he subsequently broke through the door with the bat, and I'm asking what would be the purpose of lying about that? I can see no way that can benefit OP's account at all, and it would be a risky thing to lie about if he was trying to come up with a story that would fit in with whatever crime scene evidence would be collected.

My conclusion - there's really nothing to suggest that OP remained on his stumps while breaking down the door and no reason to think he fabricated this part (other than Vermuelen's sketchy demonstration and attempt to hide photos depicting the cricket bat hitting the higher mark on the door)

 

[minor4th]

OP and his defense team also have a large hurdle to overcome since the questionnaire that he filled out in order to purchase guns was admitted in as evidence. Based on his answers to that questionnaire, OP knew without doubt that he was to NOT shoot blindly into a room without seeing who/what he was shooting at. OP also knew that he was not to shoot (at) someone that was not posing an immediate danger to him or anyone that was with him.

He claims that he did believe that he was in imminent danger, as he believed an intruder was in the toilet and was coming out to attack him and Reeva.

Whether that is a reasonable belief is up to the judge to decide, considering the entirety of the situation and surrounding circumstances, etc.

 

[Harmony 2]

So no court until Monday? Did I understand correctly?

 

[curiousjo]

OP said they had gone to bed at 10pm .... Then his intruder scenario. He left out the hour long fight overheard by multiple neighbors from 2-3 am. And the fact that RS was awake at time of incident. Neighbors heard intermixed male and female voices shouting at each other! The female screaming stopped after the final shot! His first call was not for medical help. It all starts to add up...

 

[minor4th]

Wasn't it Burger who said she heard four gunshots that were bang.........bangbangbang? If so, then what she heard lines up with what the ballistic expert stated today in court. That lends credibility to her testimony, IMO. Dr. Stipp said that he heard 3 "shots". The door showed two strikes from the cricket bat. The metal plate on the tub showed damage as well, looked like it had been hit at least once. Perhaps OP used the cricket bat first on the door, after hitting the metal plate on the tub, then went for his gun, fired four shots through the door into the toilet area, then used his hands to finish taking the panel out of the door that he had just bashed twice with the cricket bat and fired the shots through.

Here's the problem with that though - what Burger heard were the sounds of the cricket bat breaking the door and not the gunshots - she did not hear the gunshots that Stipp heard; she was only awakened by the screaming that followed the gunshots.

I believe the state has said there were only 2 or 3 strikes by the cricket bat. In Burger's first statements to police in March 2013, she did not say she heard 4 shots (bang, pause, bang, bang, bang) - in her March 2013 she only heard "2 or 3" "shots." The 4 shots and sequence was an addition to her statement that appeared for the first time when she took the stand to testify.

The State has made no allegation that OP used the cricket bat before the gunshots, and in fact their own experts have concluded that the 4 gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

 

[TorisMom003]

He claims that he did believe that he was in imminent danger, as he believed an intruder was in the toilet and was coming out to attack him and Reeva.

Whether that is a reasonable belief is up to the judge to decide, considering the entirety of the situation and surrounding circumstances, etc.

Yes and the judge will also have to decide if OP is being truthful about Reeva not making a peep after being shot in the hip before he fired 3 more shots at her. IMO OP's story is full of lies, some that have been shown to be lies by testimony now. If OP truly thought there was an intruder in the house and that was why he shot and killed Reeva, then why all of the lies? Why not call for police immediately after he "realized" that it was Reeva that he shot? If OP was innocent of premeditated murder, there would be no reason to lie at all.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

Here's the problem with that though - what Burger heard were the sounds of the cricket bat breaking the door and not the gunshots - she did not hear the gunshots that Stipp heard; she was only awakened by the screaming that followed the gunshots.

I believe the state has said there were only 2 or 3 strikes by the cricket bat. In Burger's first statements to police in March 2013, she did not say she heard 4 shots (bang, pause, bang, bang, bang) - in her March 2013 she only heard "2 or 3" "shots." The 4 shots and sequence was an addition to her statement that appeared for the first time when she took the stand to testify.

The State has made no allegation that OP used the cricket bat before the gunshots, and in fact their own experts have concluded that the 4 gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

BBM

The bolded part is an assumption, not a fact. How exactly was there screaming that followed the gunshots?

 

[minor4th]

OP said they had gone to bed at 10pm .... Then his intruder scenario. He left out the hour fight heard by multiple neighbors from 2-3 am. And the fact that RS was awake at time of incident. Neighbors heard intermixed male and female voices shouting at each other! The female screaming stopped after the final shot! His first call was not for medical help. It all starts to add up...

There was only one neighbor who heard one side of what she thought sounded like arguing - on and off for an hour. And she testified that she did NOT know where those sounds were coming from. While the State would like to imply that the sounds were coming from Oscar's house - that was certainly not established by the witness. We've heard no other evidence from any neighbors about hearing anything before the gunshots.

Security patrolled his house at 2:20 a.m. and everything was normal, like it always is. No arguing, lights weren't on in the house, nothing at all unusual - that suggests that there was not constant arguing between Reeva and OP from 2:00 a.m. - 3:00 a.m.

 

[TorisMom003]

So no court until Monday? Did I understand correctly?

That is correct.

 

[minor4th]

Yes and the judge will also have to decide if OP is being truthful about Reeva not making a peep after being shot in the hip before he fired 3 more shots at her. IMO OP's story is full of lies, some that have been shown to be lies by testimony now. If OP truly thought there was an intruder in the house and that was why he shot and killed Reeva, then why all of the lies? Why not call for police immediately after he "realized" that it was Reeva that he shot? If OP was innocent of premeditated murder, there would be no reason to lie at all.

MOO

I'm not sure what lies you;re talking about that have shown that Oscar's story is full of lies. Can you elaborate?