Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Interested Bystander]

I think far too much weight is being placed on the specifics of this witness statement. As you mentioned earlier, despite the severity of the gunshots and the apparent blood-curdling screams, she decided to sleep on it. Had she reported the crime with the urgency it required this testimony would not be in doubt. A crime that she suggested afterwards 'shocked her to the core' yet she didn't report at the time because of the far more shocking revelation...'me and my husband are quite private people'. Make of that what you will.

Not quite accurate. In her testimony she gave the phone to her husband who rang the number she had on it for security. She did not have the security number for Silver Wood and wanted her security people to contact Silver Woods security BUT she had unfortunately selected the security number from where she had previously lived.

I agree they perhaps could have done more but it is untrue that they did not try to contact someone. You can listen to her testimony here:-

Oscar Pistorius murder trial Michelle Burger's testimony - YouTube

 

[Trooper]

Searching Stipp's testimony it was Roux who mentioned the "10 minutes" in the exchange as follows:

Roux:

About 10 minutes later. You heard "Help, Help, Help"?​

by Sky News court reporter March 7 at 7:54 AM

Stipp:

I'm not sure about the 10 minutes. But I did hear "Help, Help, Help" after speaking to the security guards.
​

by Sky News court reporter March 7 at 7:55 AM

I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked.

I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open.

I think I must then have turned on the lights.

I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-full-court-statement-1718677#ixzz2wm9uJEJZ
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clearly states here, this is Oscars rendition, that he called for help help help at the balcony door.. before he picks up the cricket bat . He doesn't pick up the bat on this 1st trip . he puts on his legs.


runs back to the bathroom and tries to kick the door down .


then he RETURNS back to the bedroom, and now.. after calling for help help help , on the first trip back to the bedroom, ( Reeva is still locked and dying behind the door ) this is his second trip back to the bedroom, he picks up the cricket bat..

before running back to swing the bat around.


to summarize.. Oscar makes 2 trips to the bedroom after shooting Reeva.


he shoots the gun off four times..

he returns to the bedroom, opens the sliding door calls out HELP HELP HELP

puts his legs on.

runs back to the bathroom, tries to aim a kick at the door.

runs back to the bedroom , picks up the bat.

runs back to the bathroom and bangs the bat around.

he calls out the help help help before he has the cricket bat or his legs on. on his 1st trip back to the bedroom.


so why would Roux want him hanging about for 10 minutes with no bat, and having shot the gun off, before he yells help help help?


Oscar clearly says he did this. Stipp heard no bangs AFTER he hears the help help help call from Oscar..

and that's because Stipp didn't hear the cricket bat sounds, and couldn't be confusing those sounds with gunfire.. nor could anyone else..


sequence... screaming, gunfire, woman screaming mingled screaming, 3 more shots, pause, .. help help help..

that's the sounds the witnesses have testified to.

 

[Trooper]

the cricket bat sounds which only Oscar hears, and that's not surprising, are AFTER the help help help holler..

when Oscar shouts help .. he has done with the shooting.. all the shots are fired..

his next event is putting on his legs, and trying to kick the door down. no one hears this, either, and that's not surprising.

the event after that, is running back to the bedroom, and picking up the bat. then back to the bathroom.


by the time he gets the bat on the door. he has.. in sequence.. (sound wise)

fired 4 shots. called for help from the balcony.

the witnesses have heard. in sequence, sound wise.

screaming, arguing, SHOT, intermingled screaming SHOT SHOT SHOT .. help help help.




after he shouts help, its the cricket bat time. 2 whacks .

 

[Really?]

why are we subjected to this Menalou stuff again??

:blushing:....because I am still playing catch up.......and I am sloooooooooooooooooooow

:blushing:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Interestingly Burger's husband thought he heard 4,5 or 6 shots. So did he hear more shots, as Stipp attested to and if he did what was he hearing - echos perhaps?

 

[soozieqtips]

That's one of the best posts I've seen on the forum so far. The idea of a crime sleuthing forum isn't to exploit a personal belief of guilt or innocence, it's to explore the possibilities from both sides. Those that believe OP to be guilty should be looking at avenues that the defense will exploit to make his story stick, otherwise they could be in for a shock. Those that believe OP to be innocent likewise. On the basis of probability, one thing we know for sure is that in this crime there will be witness statements from both sides that are unclear, incorrect and misleading.

BBM - and yet I've seen plenty of posts which clearly profess to be neutral and unbiased but which come across as unwilling to see anything that doesn't back up OP's account... or changes things to fit in with OP's account. I don't profess to be neutral since I think OP did in fact kill Reeva in a rage and I think his story has no credibility and is full of holes. OP is still alive and Reeva is not and I don't claim to feel neutral about the innocent person who was shot to death that night. That doesn't mean I automatically blank out everything that supports OP's account. I'm sure some things are based on truth, but on the other hand, I think his strange declaration that "We were deeply in love and couldn't be happier and I know she felt the same way" was out of place in his affidavit, especially since he didn't even bother to get help for Reeva, and was more interested in getting things out of his safe. Sometimes, for me anyway, it's necessary to look at actions to get a feel for what's more likely to be true, and in this instance, I feel that OP is guilty of killing Reeva intentionally. If something crops up in the next couple of weeks that sways my opinion, I'll reconsider, but right now, I think he's guilty as sin.

 

[james83]

Not damning for reasons I have explained over and over and over about



1) One set of loud bangs heard by three people at 3:08;

2) loud screaming heard by all witnesses (after first loud bangs)

3) another set of loud bangs at 3:17 heard by additional witnesses as well as those who heard the first bangs;

4) Ms. Burger's changed testimony, (originally said she heard "2 to 3" shots, not 4)

5) state confirmation that gunshots were before cricket bat.

6) No allegation or evidence that there were any loud bangs heard by any witness besides gunshots and cricket bat hitting door.

To come up with any theory other than the gunshots were at 3:08 and the cricket bat hitting the door was at 3:17 -- you have to add in additional speculation about additional bangs that sounded like gunshots and also believe that no one heard the cricket bat hitting the door.

I suggest that is twisting oneself in knots to try to avoid the actual evidence that has been presented.

Oscar will have a very hard time explaning the 9 minute gap between the 2 sets of sound's.
Can't imagine it took more than 30 seconds to discover the bed was empty, no way would it take anyone over 8 minutes from there to get that door open.

 

[Lyra500]

Oscar will have a very hard time explaning the 9 minute gap between the 2 sets of sound's.
Can't imagine it took more than 30 seconds to discover the bed was empty, no way would it take anyone over 8 minutes from there to get that door open.

Indeed

 

[Rumpole]

Oscar will have a very hard time explaning the 9 minute gap between the 2 sets of sound's.
Can't imagine it took more than 30 seconds to discover the bed was empty, no way would it take anyone over 8 minutes from there to get that door open.

I don't disagree with you.
But after that OP says he went back to toilet door... kicked it etc.... at some stage went to balcony to shout...then went back to bedroom and strapped on his legs, and get cricket bat and then went back to bathroom to hit the door.

That would have taken some time? You do not think 8 minutes (neither do I) What would you estimate?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I am still catching up and still feel we need to hear the rest of the evidence and do keep trying to give OP the benefit of doubt but one thing that still bothers me is if he was so fearful why confront the intruders and why not press the panic alarm either before or after the shooting . He says he shouted for help and needed help but didn't seek the help of the person /persons living on his site and instead called Stander who wasn't closest by then no ambulance ?
Are we to believe he forgot that he had it . He didn't forget that he had a gun or a cricket bat for security .
I know the live in is purported to have stated that he didn't hear anything because of a water feature (which seems incredible ) considering all the noise of gun fire and cricket bat .
He also tells a security guard that everything is fine but yet he says he was shouting for help .
This behaviour just doesn't stack up to my mind .If you hurt someone accidentally the first thing you do is attempt to call an ambulance even if you are struggling to speak with shock which we know is not the case because he clearly said he was fine to security and managed a brief call to Stander.

I am just hoping things are made much clearer when all the evidence is in.
I would love to see a house layout plan showing where the live in staff quarters were in relation to the bedroom and bathroom.

 

[james83]

I don't disagree with you.
But after that OP says he went back to toilet door... kicked it etc.... at some stage went to balcony to shout...then went back to bedroom and strapped on his legs, and get cricket bat and then went back to bathroom to hit the door.

That would have taken some time? You do not think 9 minutes (neither do I) What would you estimate?

Feel like i've been generous with these times
From last shot back to bedroom- 30 seconds
Goes back to bathroom and finds toilet door is locked "rushed back to bedroom"- 45 seconds
opens balcony doors and shouts for help,puts legs on, runs to bathroom kicks door- 2 minutes 30 seconds.
Back to bedroom gets bat, back to bathroom 30 seconds.
So personally i feel he would have been back at the toilet door with the bat in around 4 minutes 15 seconds.
Don't think that's an unreasonable estimate.

 

[kittychi]

It's very probable. It's quite interesting how the barometer of opinion has moved regarding certain aspects since the very beginning of the trial. Initially some of us were suggesting that there may have been a police conspiracy to frame OP, and finding reasons as to why the police may have intentionally altered the crime scene. At this stage, everything seems to have swung towards the definite presumption that if anything has been moved, it's been preplanned by OP. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.

There were also many who thought that some of LE wanted to clear OP; that some if the bungling was intentional. This didn't seem out if the realm of possibility since they have treated him with kid gloves in the past by letting things go and/or not investigating. He was a hero, after all.

 

[Rumpole]

Feel like i've been generous with these times
From last shot back to bedroom- 30 seconds
Goes back to bathroom and finds toilet door is locked "rushed back to bedroom"- 45 seconds
opens balcony doors and shouts for help,puts legs on, runs to bathroom kicks door- 2 minutes 30 seconds.
Back to bedroom gets bat, back to bathroom 30 seconds.
So personally i feel he would have been back at the toilet door with the bat in around 4 minutes 15 seconds.
Don't think that's an unreasonable estimate.

Ok I'll go along with your time for the sake of the argument (Discussion).

After doing that OP was then confronted with the state of Reeva in the toilet...perhaps stunned for a short time? He dragged her body out to bathroom to try and assist. That may have used up several minutes? But lets say just 2 minutes.

So with the time you estimate plus the 2 minute that is a total of 6:15 minutes.

THAT contradicts the State timeline... absolutely

Phone call records put time that Burger and Stipp heard bangs at 3:17 (actually a little after) if you add the 6:15 it would have been 6:23+ before OP could possibly have made his first phone call. Yet he made that call at 3:19

The State contention that the shots were at 3:17 simply does leave time to do much of anything before 3:19 when OP made the call. IMO the shots HAD to be earlier than 3:17.

Working the calculation back from the phone call at 3:19..... take off the 6 minutes and 15 seconds and the shots would have been at 3:14:45.

I do not want to labor the point but that is nowhere near the State version of 3:17 and it is getting closer to what Stipp reported as the first set of bangs.

I am convinced in my mind that Stipp heard bangs that were shots first, and then at around 3:17 he heard bat on door. That is also what burger(s) heard... Bat on door.

 

[zwiebel]

The key questions
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-paralympian-may-face-this-week-9210268.html

Final act of high drama
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/23/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-changing-south-africa-race

Pistorius could take the stand next week
http://abcnews.go.com/International...ory?id=23004293&ref=https://www.google.co.uk/

Apparently, after Nel calls his last witness, Roux can ask that all charges be dismissed against his client.

SA law says defence cannot take the stand until the last prosecution witness has been called.

Oscar could be called as early as Tuesday.

*All above from media reports.

 

[Cherwell]

Lol, what are you talking about? He's on the defense witness list and has given several interviews before. That he is a neighbor that will be called by the defense and not the prosecution, I'd say it's because his testimony will be more beneficial to Oscar than to the state.

Could you direct me to the list of defence witnesses, please? I didn't know that was available. I've only seen the prosecution's list.

 

[james83]

Ok I'll go along with your time for the sake of the argument (Discussion).

After doing that OP was then confronted with the state of Reeva in the toilet...perhaps stunned for a short time? He dragged her body out to bathroom to try and assist. That may have used up several minutes? But lets say just 2 minutes.

So with the time you estimate plus the 2 minute that is a total of 6:15 minutes.

THAT contradicts the State timeline... absolutely

Phone call records put time that Burger and Stipp heard bangs at 3:17 (actually a little after) if you add the 6:15 it would have been 6:23+ before OP could possibly have made his first phone call. Yet he made that call at 3:19

The State contention that the shots were at 3:17 simply does leave time to do much of anything before 3:19 when OP made the call. IMO the shots HAD to be earlier than 3:17.

Working the calculation back from the phone call at 3:19..... take off the 6 minutes and 15 seconds and the shots would have been at 3:14:45.

I do not want to labor the point but that is nowhere near the State version of 3:17 and it is getting closer to what Stipp reported as the first set of bangs.

I am convinced in my mind that Stipp heard bangs that were shots first, and then at around 3:17 he heard bat on door. That is also what burger(s) heard... Bat on door.

Yes but you are sort of mixing the state's claims and Oscar's claim's together somewhat, the state's case is simply she was killed with shots at 3.17, so in there version i would imagine if they believe as vermeulen claimed Oscar used the bat on his stumps is something like this-
3.17 shots fired, oscar get's bat breaks down door(not heard by other's), phones stander, phones netcare, puts legs on carries reeva down.
A question i would like to know the answer to is how long it takes Oscar to put his prosthesis on?.
My biggest issue with the state is the lack of an explanation for the first set of sounds, that's there big problem.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Today is the first time I have seen this. I thought some of you might be interested. Some statements from OP that don't quite gel with his version of his relationship with RS.


"His bail hearing in Pretoria has been repeatedly told how much in love the couple were, with claims she was “unlike any girl he had ever met”.
But in the interview published just weeks before tragedy struck, he told how he found it hard to trust after his previous ¬relationship with student Samantha Taylor ended sourly – allegedly with him threatening to break a man’s legs.
By the time he sat down to answer questions, Pistorius and Reeva were already dating but the pair had yet to go public.
He told February’s edition of Afrikaan women’s mag Sarie: “It’s difficult to find the right person, one who is reliable and will keep your private things private.
"It takes a very special person to be in a relationship with a sportsman. It’s not an easy life.
“You need someone who either can travel with you or is super-accommodating.
"It is a challenge, yes. I have not yet found the right person, but that’s OK.”
He also spoke of how he spends four months every year living in his home in Gerona, Italy – contradicting his lawyer’s submission during the bail hearing that he owns no such property.
Pistorius said the local mayor had even built a running track for him."


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/last-oscar-pistorius-interview-before-1723955#ixzz2wmoEBgo0

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes but you are sort of mixing the state's claims and Oscar's claim's together somewhat, the state's case is simply she was killed with shots at 3.17, so in there version i would imagine if they believe as vermeulen claimed Oscar used the bat on his stumps is something like this-
3.17 shots fired, oscar get's bat breaks down door(not heard by other's), phones stander, phones netcare, puts legs on carries reeva down.
A question i would like to know the answer to is how long it takes Oscar to put his prosthesis on?.
My biggest issue with the state is the lack of an explanation for the first set of sounds, that's there big problem.

I understand he can put them on in seconds .

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes but you are sort of mixing the state's claims and Oscar's claim's together somewhat, the state's case is simply she was killed with shots at 3.17, so in there version i would imagine if they believe as vermeulen claimed Oscar used the bat on his stumps is something like this-
3.17 shots fired, oscar get's bat breaks down door(not heard by other's), phones stander, phones netcare, puts legs on carries reeva down.
A question i would like to know the answer to is how long it takes Oscar to put his prosthesis on?.
My biggest issue with the state is the lack of an explanation for the first set of sounds, that's there big problem.

BBM - someone recently posted a clip of exactly that and he puts them on extremely fast. If you go back a few pages, you should find the clip. Don't have time to find it for you right now or I'd include the link.

 

[Insp.Dots]

It would be a weird states ballistic expert who did the Defences testing for them, wouldn't it??


I did truly expect more from Roux. he isn't a well known sharpshooter ( unfortunate phrase ) defending a murder case.. but even so, I did expect more, and as the days go on, I get cranky with myself for expecting more. I mean solid stuff, not theoretical stuff, not wispy thin stuff, but certainly some thing graspable, and concrete. hasn't happened.

Might next week.

Same could be said the other way couldn't it? Some expected more from the state in the way of 'solid staff's....not just circumstantial. Having said that the State haven't rested their case yet and the defence haven't started their side so perhaps it's premature to decide on their capabilities?