Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[steveml]

No, that's not really fair. They didn't simply go back to sleep. Johnson was sufficiently disturbed by the whole thing that he was up measuring for new security doors around 4am.

But OK, maybe Berger is made of sterner stuff - so what?

Let's remember what they actually said. They heard a woman screaming and a man's voice. They heard the woman scream for help and then the man call for help in a much less distressed fashion. Berger suggested he may have been mocking the woman, Johnson said he sounded a bit embarrassed as if he'd been locked up somewhere.

They were both convinced that they'd heard a break in. They felt that the woman could only have screamed like that if her life was threatened and they hoped the man hadn't been shot dead in front of her.

Now what's really, really interesting about them is WHY they went to the police via their solicitor.

It was because when they heard the story that OP was putting about they realised that it was completely and entirely inconsistent with what they heard. To them there was no possible way that OP mistook Reeva for an intruder when they had heard her screaming for her life.

So we can claim she embellished her testimony, or behaved oddly by not calling the police as much as we like but it's really irrelevant when you realise that it's BECAUSE that's what they heard that they even wanted to contact the police in the first place.

The only other possible explanation is that they didn't like OP and were willing to perjure themselves to contradict his story.

The Berger, Johnson and Stipp testimony is very powerful and extremely hard to dismiss. This is why Roux needed to "attack their credibility" (as he admitted in open court was necessary with some witnesses - accidentally, I think) and why he's had to formulate the ridiculous defence that Oscar screams like a woman....except when he's calling for help like a man.

I was coming round to your way of thinking - until you asked me to be fair. If I'm going to play Devil's advocate you can bet your bottom dollar I'm not going to be fair m'lady. :wink:

Do you think Roux's going to be fair?

Seriously though, you make some really good points there. I'm gonna need to start talking about the jeans or something, need an easier time :smile:

 

[Rumpole]

BBM

In regards to your point that I bolded, it works if you don't believe that he had to do any of those other things. I think he immediately got her out of that room because he KNEW it was her. No need to run around and open doors and put legs on.

That's why there are no foot prints in blood and that's why the most pronounced bat mark is at a level that's consistent with being on stumps.

It's very feasible it took only a few minutes to get her out and make the call to Stander.

I believe OP's affidavit was very carefully crafted in those 5 days before his bail hearing. We've all seen how good Roux (Mr Double Taps) is with making things "fit"

He HAD to do some (most) of those things? After the gunshots. At the very least go get the bat and bash the door and drag Reeva out.

The State contention that shots were around (after) 3:17 is at odds with phone time evidence. It does not work at all. Say the shots ended 3:17:30 (might have been later than that) that leaves only a minute and a half before he was on the phone... that does not make sense.... so it's not true (ref Judge Judy)

 

[steveml]

I'm a few pages behind right now, so hopefully I'm not double posting but you are incorrect on the point that I bolded.

They do have phone records of the call he made to security. The call ended just before 3:17am. They heard the shots right after that. That is how the 3:17am time came in to play.

Thanks, I wasn't too sure myself, but it shows you're on the ball. Well spotted.

 

[james83]

He HAD to do some (most) of those things? After the gunshots. At the very least go get the bat and bash the door and drag Reeva out.

The State contention that shots were around (after) 3:17 is at odds with phone time evidence. It does not work at all. Say the shots ended 3:17:30 (might have been later than that) that leaves only a minute and a half before he was on the phone... that does not make sense.... so it's not true (ref Judge Judy)

Yes it does make sense, he could have been on the phone anytime after the shots, he is trying to get away with murder for god's sake.
You are taking elements from his side of the story and mixing it with the state's case to come to your conclusion.
What's to say the bat wasnt already in the bathroom?
Whats to say he actually broke down the door before making the calls?

 

[Insp.Dots]

BBM

That should give him an extra 20 yrs......moo

Yes, it is certainly a risk.

 

[LemonMousse]

You're saying there's no chance that, given the distance of his home and certain possible environmental factors, that the sound of the bat striking the door could have been carried to Stipp's open window? Really? Not even a slight possibility?

Possibly. He was quite close to OP's house, both OP's bathroom and Stipp's bedroom windows were open and it was a clear, still night. They were also the sounds that woke him so less easy to identify than the ones he heard when wide awake. These may have been the sounds that woke him.

Problem is, I would say that it is exceptionally unlikely that they travelled as far as the Berger house. Not impossible, nothing is, but very, very, very unlikely. If you look at the physical evidence of the door, which the expert said showed minor damage from the cricket bat, can anyone really suppose that OP hit it 4 times with the kind of ferocity needed to replicate the loudness of a gunshot? It's a thin, internal door with plywood panels held together with glue. It's there for privacy, not security. For OP to hit it that hard and not manage a dent, it would have to be solid oak or something.

And we all keep forgetting - the door wasn't smashed open. The panels were prised out. That's the evidence presented in court, and the appearance if the door itself is consistent with that.

All this stuff about smashing the door open with a cricket bat comes from OP and absolutely no one else.

 

[lisasalinger]

He HAD to do some (most) of those things? After the gunshots. At the very least go get the bat and bash the door and drag Reeva out.

The State contention that shots were around (after) 3:17 is at odds with phone time evidence. It does not work at all. Say the shots ended 3:17:30 (might have been later than that) that leaves only a minute and a half before he was on the phone... that does not make sense.... so it's not true (ref Judge Judy)

BBM

How do you know he had to go get the bat? Do you have proof of where the bat was prior to the shooting?

Also, do you have proof that he had already pulled Reeva out of the toilet before calling Stander?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Yes it does make sense, he could have been on the phone anytime after the shots, he is trying to get away with murder for god's sake.
You are taking elements from his side of the story and mixing it with the state's case to come to your conclusion.
What's to say the bat wasnt already in the bathroom?
Whats to say he actually broke down the door before making the calls?

I agree.. The door could have been broken partially already and he made the call to Santander then went on breaking the pieces with his hands maybe..

 

[Viper]

He HAD to do some (most) of those things? After the gunshots. At the very least go get the bat and bash the door and drag Reeva out.

The State contention that shots were around (after) 3:17 is at odds with phone time evidence. It does not work at all. Say the shots ended 3:17:30 (might have been later than that) that leaves only a minute and a half before he was on the phone... that does not make sense.... so it's not true (ref Judge Judy)

If you take what Lisa posted yesterday, "The screaming stopped after the volley of gunshots stopped" as true, and you believe that screaming and gunshots did occur at 3:17, then what are you arguing about exactly? I read your posts and I cannot follow your logic. Please help me see your side of just the 3:17 issue.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I left a potion of the message out, because I am somewhat of a lazy typer and because I thought it would be clear anyway. But if you want to discredit a witness by saying what s/he did or did not do does not make sense to you because that is not what you or most others would do, then you probably should not tell others to NOT apply the same logic and common sense to what OP did or did not do.

BTW. I have never hear of the "Im an unreasonable person" defense. :smile: But you are probably right about that. Probably a whole bunch of psychiatric stuff is coming from the DT.

Sorry without the portion of the post you are talking about you have lost me. What point are you trying to make?
I reported about the defence tack unreasonable person as it will be interesting. All his life OP has asked to be treated as a normal reasonable person and is now about to do a complete turnaround. Looking at it in a neutral stance, it is probably his only hope of getting a lesser sentence.

 

[zwiebel]

Yes that was my understanding and I think someone else on here thought the same . I think he knew where Reeva was before he shot her because he could see through the crack in the door .
I keep trying to be impartial but really struggle with what we are seeing so far but as I said yesterday I will listen to the defence as well .

I think that too. I might have said he just followed the sounds, but of course OP said Reeva didn't make a sound. It seems real odd to me she went from standing up to crumpled in the corner with her head right over the toilet seat, but OP still managed to get a direct hit to her head.

It would have been really interesting if the first sliver out of the door had been found to have no gunpowder residue on it - might have indicated if was knocked out before any shots were fired. Unfortunately, we heard very little about powder residue tests on the door, and bits from the floor were transported in the body bag with the main door anyhow, so there's contamination. Also, some of it has been lost.

 

[Viper]

He HAD to do some (most) of those things? After the gunshots. At the very least go get the bat and bash the door and drag Reeva out.

The State contention that shots were around (after) 3:17 is at odds with phone time evidence. It does not work at all. Say the shots ended 3:17:30 (might have been later than that) that leaves only a minute and a half before he was on the phone... that does not make sense.... so it's not true (ref Judge Judy)

Arterial blood spurt evidence proves her heart was still beating downstairs. She was alive until her heart stopped beating... downstairs.

His own expert, forensic pathologist Dr. Prumenthal (sp,) said in an interview last year that Reeva died in th WC. So not arterial blood spurt. Why is it important to many here that she was alive when OP pulled here out of the WC? That is not what his expert is going to say.

 

[MeeBee]

Possibly. He was quite close to OP's house, both OP's bathroom and Stipp's bedroom windows were open and it was a clear, still night. They were also the sounds that woke him so less easy to identify than the ones he heard when wide awake. These may have been the sounds that woke him.

Problem is, I would say that it is exceptionally unlikely that they travelled as far as the Berger house. Not impossible, nothing is, but very, very, very unlikely. If you look at the physical evidence of the door, which the expert said showed minor damage from the cricket bat, can anyone really suppose that OP hit it 4 times with the kind of ferocity needed to replicate the loudness of a gunshot? It's a thin, internal door with plywood panels held together with glue. It's there for privacy, not security. For OP to hit it that hard and not manage a dent, it would have to be solid oak or something.

And we all keep forgetting - the door wasn't smashed open. The panels were prised out. That's the evidence presented in court, and the appearance if the door itself is consistent with that.

All this stuff about smashing the door open with a cricket bat comes from OP and absolutely no one else.

When I lived in Montreal, there was a park a few blocks from our house and much further away than the Burgers' house was to OP's. On weekends they'd have soccer matches. Normally, we couldn't hear anything in the park but when our window was open and the wind and the air caught the sound just right it would carry the sounds of the match to our window. It was so crystal clear that it sounded like it was right outside our window. Not only could hear cheers but individual voices and conversations. I don't think it is as far outside the realm of possibility as you think it is that the sound of the bat striking the door could carry 177 meters away and sound clear enough to sound like a gunshot. I could definitely see that.

 

[zwiebel]

The tiles in OP's bathroom look like pretty thick, Italian or Italian-style to me. That metal panel in the bath had a tile on top of it, and it's pretty hard to break a thick tile that's laying flat with a blunt object like wood, especially hard enough to dent the metal underneath at the same time.

I am surprised police didn't conclude a bullet did that, actually.

 

[Rumpole]

It is not appropriate to dismiss every detail of what OP says, simply because you have preconceived notion that he is guilty and that EVERYTHING he says is a lie.
In fact he is innocent until proven guilty, but even if you do question his version you can not just simply invent details to suit your own hypotheses without some evidence, or basis for your own speculation, or at the very least some evidence that contradicts a detail offered by OP.

 

[LemonMousse]

There is only a problem with timings if we assume that OP is telling the truth. And I'd really like someone to explain to me why we should assume any such thing. Presumption of innocence is not the same as assumption of innocence.

Of course it's possible - I would even say probable given the circumstances - that OP called Stander and Netcare before he broke the door open.

He knew what he had done. He was probably petrified of having to see what he had done. His initial reaction could have been that he simply couldn't face the reality of what he'd done.

He irrationally calls for help from the balcony (to who?) when there's a panic alarm in the same room. He then calls Stander - probably saying something like "Something awful's happened". I very, very, very much doubt he told Stander that Reeva was lying in the toilet, barely breathing and covered in blood because what decent human being would not instantly hang up and call an ambulance after hearing that? And we know that Stander didn't call them until Stipp was there. The most rational explanation for this is that Stander didn't know exactly what the situation was - Oscar didn't say because Oscar didn't know yet.

Likewise the call to Netcare.

This also explains the "everything is fine" as he didn't want them involved before Stander arrived, who may have to told him to wait till he got there.

I think OP then broke the door on his stumps, pulled her out into the bathroom on his stumps - then went and got his legs, went downstairs and opened the door, came back and carried her down. No bloody footprints on the carpets, because his feet had not walked in any blood.

If we believe OP, nothing makes sense. If we disbelieve OP, everything does.

Odd that, huh?

 

[lisasalinger]

Does anyone have links to photos of the smashed tiles in the bathroom? Did Nel bring this up with any of the police and forensics witnesses?

OP seemed to be a fairly neat and tidy person about the house but he had broken aircon, a bashed-in bath panel, broken window downstairs, "bullet" hole in, and damage to, his bedroom door...

These are the best pics I have handy right now. The first one is pretty blurry.

The broken tiles are just behind the door. The one large white piece is actually a bathroom scale and the other smaller pieces of white are the broken tile. I'm not sure if there is a door stopper on that wall, or if the door actually reaches that wall. I suppose the Defense could suggest that one of the "flying" panels hit the wall and broke the tiles.

I do not recall Nel bringing up the cause of the broken tiles with any of the investigators.

 

[LemonMousse]

It is not appropriate to dismiss every detail of what OP says, simply because you have preconceived notion that he is guilty and that EVERYTHING he says is a lie.
In fact he is innocent until proven guilty, but even if you do question his version you can not just simply invent details to suit your own hypotheses without some evidence, or basis for your own speculation, or at the very least some evidence that contradicts a detail offered by OP.

Sorry, how many more details that contradict OP's version do you actually want?

There's dozens. Please don't accuse others of not keeping an open mind when you have similarly failed to manage that yourself.

Everyone is biased, everyone has their pet theory. And everyone is entitled to argue it. If not, what is the point of this forum?

 

[lisasalinger]

There is only a problem with timings if we assume that OP is telling the truth. And I'd really like someone to explain to me why we should assume any such thing. Presumption of innocence is not the same as assumption of innocence.

Of course it's possible - I would even say probable given the circumstances - that OP called Stander and Netcare before he broke the door open.

He knew what he had done. He was probably petrified of having to see what he had done. His initial reaction could have been that he simply couldn't face the reality of what he'd done.

He irrationally calls for help from the balcony (to who?) when there's a panic alarm in the same room. He then calls Stander - probably saying something like "Something awful's happened". I very, very, very much doubt he told Stander that Reeva was lying in the toilet, barely breathing and covered in blood because what decent human being would not instantly hang up and call an ambulance after hearing that? And we know that Stander didn't call them until Stipp was there. The most rational explanation for this is that Stander didn't know exactly what the situation was - Oscar didn't say because Oscar didn't know yet.

Likewise the call to Netcare.

This also explains the "everything is fine" as he didn't want them involved before Stander arrived, who may have to told him to wait till he got there.

I think OP then broke the door on his stumps, pulled her out into the bathroom on his stumps - then went and got his legs, went downstairs and opened the door, came back and carried her down. No bloody footprints on the carpets, because his feet had not walked in any blood.

If we believe OP, nothing makes sense. If we disbelieve OP, everything does.

Odd that, huh?

:goodpost:

 

[LemonMousse]

When I lived in Montreal, there was a park a few blocks from our house and much further away than the Burgers' house was to OP's. On weekends they'd have soccer matches. Normally, we couldn't hear anything in the park but when our window was open and the wind and the air caught the sound just right it would carry the sounds of the match to our window. It was so crystal clear that it sounded like it was right outside our window. Not only could hear cheers but individual voices and conversations. I don't think it is as far outside the realm of possibility as you think it is that the sound of the bat striking the door could carry 177 meters away and sound clear enough to sound like a gunshot. I could definitely see that.

It's the coupling of the improbability (not impossibility) of this with the evidence of the door that takes it to stunningly improbable to me.

I know what you mean, though. I used to live in a flat not far from Lords in London and often heard the cricket bat noise. Can't honestly say they sounded like shots, though - but I never really thought about it.