Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[steveml]

In which case, why didn't it fall off completely? This issue is less how thick the panel is, but how strong the screws holding it in place.

The whack was strong enough to pull screws out and leave a huge dent - on a flimsy dust cover lined up against the edges of the bath frame, this would have been enough to make it fall off completely.

I am truly flummoxed that anyone can look at that panel and think a falling plank of plywood could do that. The depth of the dent itself, perfectly centred proves that force was aimed squarely at the middle. This is inconsistent with a bit of wood falling from above.

I would be surprised if a piece of wood fell and did that, and for that reason I've never suggested it. When I mentioned lined, I don't mean leaned, I apologise - I should have been clearer and said aligned (but still fastened).

A screw and it's size only become relevant when we see what it's screwed into. Most baths are timber framed, but we'd need to know that before we can be confident. I agree that it looks like something has hit it in the middle, it would need a kick or something to dent it like that.

Ask any plumber if you don't believe bath panels are merely dust covers. They're nearly always very thin plastic, steel or wood, and are for decoration only, they don't need to carry a single ounce of weight. Have a look at your own. You'll be able to dint it with a kick quite easily (don't try this though).

 

[lisasalinger]

Wow I have kept reading about this damaged bath plate but never realised what a big dent was in it . No way do I believe that a light weight door panel could do that by just being thrown back unless I saw a demonstration to that effect .
Wonder if it will be raised at some point .

They also testified that there is a scratch right in the middle of that denting and only something very hard could have created that scratch. I'm not sure wood could do that but that's just my guess.

 

[james83]

Vermeulen also said a metal panel on the wall of the main bathroom in Pistorius' home had been damaged by being hit with a "hard" object.

 

[Viper]

Vermeulen also said a metal panel on the wall of the main bathroom in Pistorius' home had been damaged by being hit with a "hard" object.

So what in the world is going on in the bathroom? OP is freaking out and smashing panels all over the place!!! :floorlaugh:

 

[lisasalinger]

By the way - last Christmas my next door neighbours got into a terrible fight and there was horrible screaming coming from her. I called the police, as did other neighbours, and subsequently saw her being taken off in an ambulance and him in a police car. I went back off to sleep perfectly well after that and I am not a cold uncaring person. I was also never contacted by the police after that to give evidence and didn't feel the need to contact anyone myself - and I went into work the next day.

I've also sat and watched the bodies of two neighbours being taken out of their home in a story that made the national news. Again, I slept with no difficulty afterwards.

I don't find Berger and Johnson's actions that odd, personally.

Let's also not forget their whole testimonies...

They only slept for a brief time. Charl Johnson who was not able to sleep fitfully got up around 4am to measure doors on his home, concerned about their own security and was googling security gates the next day. They both talked to co-workers about the incident and called each other to discuss it too.

It was clearly on their minds!

The fact that Roux is REACHING to make them out to be uncaring and confused tells me these are important witnesses and he needs them to go away.

 

[james83]

So what in the world is going on in the bathroom? OP is freaking out and smashing panels all over the place!!! :floorlaugh:[/QUOTE

Explains the first bangs that Stipp heard i suppose.
Personally i think he was frustrated that Reeva had locked herself in the toilet and he couldn't get to her so firstly he took his frustration out on that bath panel and ultimately ended up firing 4 bullets through the door, JMO.

 

[MeeBee]

So what in the world is going on in the bathroom? OP is freaking out and smashing panels all over the place!!! :floorlaugh:[/QUOTE

Explains the first bangs that Stipp heard i suppose.
Personally i think he was frustrated that Reeva had locked herself in the toilet and he couldn't get to her so firstly he took his frustration out on that bath panel and ultimately ended up firing 4 bullets through the door, JMO.

Doesn't it make more sense that one set of sounds was the bat hitting the door?

 

[lisasalinger]

Vermeulen also said a metal panel on the wall of the main bathroom in Pistorius' home had been damaged by being hit with a "hard" object.

There were also broken bath tiles from the wall seen smashed on the ground behind the door. Nobody has explained those yet.

 

[steveml]

I don't think she's lying about hearing anything, I think it's possible the media reports and stories of the incident have influenced her recounting of things, which calls into question her testimony. First, she said she heard two or three shots (wasn't sure) but now she is sure it was four. She couldn't even admit to the possibility that she was mistaken. She was sure. That is iffy. We typically don't go back and remember things like that with such certainty. It's just not how the human brain works. I don't believe she suddenly came to the epiphany that it was four shots she heard. This was probably something she came to learn and it influenced her memory. In her mind, what she heard were gunshots and if there were four then she must have heard four. At that point, she's not relating what she actually heard but what she thinks she must have heard. "I heard gunshots, there were four gunshots, so I must have heard four gunshots."

Good post. The problem for me is how far do we draw the line on this? If we are asking someone to accept that what she heard afterwards may have influenced her recounting of events, do we then accept that she knew the voice was definitely female. She would have known it was a woman before she made a statement, the same way she would have heard about the number of shots. Is this an all or nothing situation? Are we entitled to accept just one part of a possible influenced memory? This is a dilemma I've been juggling with for a while.

 

[MeeBee]

Good post. The problem for me is how far do we draw the line on this? If we are asking someone to accept that what she heard afterwards may have influenced her recounting of events, do we then accept that she knew the voice was definitely female. She would have known it was a woman before she made a statement, the same way she would have heard about the number of shots. Is this an all or nothing situation? Are we entitled to accept just one part of a possible influenced memory? This is a dilemma I've been juggling with for a while.

I don't know. I think if I were the judge I would not weigh her testimony as heavily as other witnesses because of the potential for bias. We can't accept that she knows for certain that the voice was definitely female because she wasn't there and it could have been Oscar she was hearing. I think she believes it was a woman, so I don't think that part was influenced, just as with other witnesses. I think it's possible she was mistaken though and she won't even consider the possibility that she is mistaken.

 

[delilah]

No worries. I think she probably heard the gunshots, but there's something that just doesn't sit quite right with the explanations of the screaming, and how they've become more intense each time she's explained them. You can hear gunshots from a distance, and not concern yourself to much, as it could be a car-jacking or something similar. It's just the human nature of a woman hearing another woman's blood-curdling screams, then going back to sleep and going to work the next day as normal. If I think she may be exaggerating hearing the screams, then I have to think carefully about the references to it being a woman's scream. I'm not saying she didn't, it just gives me pause for thought.

I do think OP is guilty by the way, so I don't need a great deal of convincing. I'm just throwing things out there for people to chew on, as this is exactly what defense will be doing soon. Moreover it wouldn't be much fun if this was just a pro-Reeva or pro-OP forum. We may as well just post a quick line on twitter proclaiming their guilt/innocence if that was the case.

I tend to agree that Burger has embellished a bit.

She made a point of switching from Afrikaans to English to emphasise her point about the bloodcurdlingness (not a word, but you know what I mean) of the screams, and how the screamer appeared to be in fear of her life. She also said the incident had had an impact on her. However, she and husband spoke to the 'wrong' security company and then went back to sleep! Sounds odd to me. I'm not saying she's making stuff up deliberately, I just think time and exposure to the reporting around the case may have made her exaggerate some aspects of her testimony. If it transpires that the company they called agreed to phone the police or the relevant security company, or Burger and Johnson did and it's not been mentioned, I'd have more confidence in her testimony.

But I still think she heard the bangs and the screaming.

 

[Lyra500]

I'm a recent poster here too so others can welcome you better than I.

I wondered about the specs too. I think he may be using them to look more demure, more like a university professor than a sport's hot-head.

I wondered whether that was the case too.

I remember an article by. Clare Balding a UK sports commentator looking back on his very unsportsmanlike outburst at the London 2012 Olympics. She said that at the medal ceremony the following day, OP was almost like a different person.

http://www.stylist.co.uk/people/where-are-the-true-heroes#image-rotator-1

Then the 200m took place and Brazil’s Alan Oliveira finished like a train to catch Pistorius on the line. Pistorius was furious. Funnily enough, I did not think his behaviour after the 200m was odd. Just interesting. I have seen plenty of sportsmen react badly to defeat and for him to blame the length of Alan Oliviera’s blades was petulant and unsporting, but it wasn’t odd – except that it came from him. The stranger thing was the way he appeared at the medals ceremony the next day. The look was very ‘Clark Kent’. Oscar’s hair was gelled flat, he was clean shaven and wearing black rimmed spectacles. He bowed his head on the podium, saying clearly with his body language, ‘I am contrite, I am humbled. Please still love me.’

Either he had decided on this behaviour himself or he had been ‘advised’ to do so.

 

[Viper]

There were also broken bath tiles from the wall seen smashed on the ground behind the door. Nobody has explained those yet.

Thanks for that!

I might add that the tiles on the outside of the door to the left near the bottom were also broken, IIRC. Anyway, too much destruction unrelated to the intruder fairy tale we all read. Why? Probably OP going crazy (mad) towards Reeva locked in the WC...

 

[steveml]

By the way - last Christmas my next door neighbours got into a terrible fight and there was horrible screaming coming from her. I called the police, as did other neighbours, and subsequently saw her being taken off in an ambulance and him in a police car. I went back off to sleep perfectly well after that and I am not a cold uncaring person. I was also never contacted by the police after that to give evidence and didn't feel the need to contact anyone myself - and I went into work the next day.

I've also sat and watched the bodies of two neighbours being taken out of their home in a story that made the national news. Again, I slept with no difficulty afterwards.

I don't find Berger and Johnson's actions that odd, personally.

You went back to sleep perfectly well because you called the police and subsequently saw her being taken off in an ambulance. Exactly, you'd done the right thing by calling the police and seeing the situation become under control. That's the normal thing to do, and I would expect you to sleep fine.

The Berger's didn't do this. They didn't get anybody out. They didn't make a mistake thinking they called somebody out who would be here to help the woman with the blood-curdling screams. They called a wrong number and then simply went back to sleep. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people, but I'm a bit reluctant to accept how upset Ms Berger really was when she tells me how traumatised she was that morning.

 

[delilah]

Does anyone have links to photos of the smashed tiles in the bathroom? Did Nel bring this up with any of the police and forensics witnesses?

OP seemed to be a fairly neat and tidy person about the house but he had broken aircon, a bashed-in bath panel, broken window downstairs, "bullet" hole in, and damage to, his bedroom door...

 

[james83]

Doesn't it make more sense that one set of sounds was the bat hitting the door?

As Lemonmousse pointed out earlier, Oscar's affidavit says he fired the shots, shouted for help on the balcony, then broke down the door with the bat.

Stipp testified that he heard, a set of bangs, a 2nd set of bangs and then a man cry for help.

What does this tell us?, it tells us that when oscar cried for help stipp had alreay heard both set's of bangs and had not yet used the bat.

Edit Not sure this looks like i have quoted myself i was responding to meebee.

 

[LemonMousse]

I would be surprised if a piece of wood fell and did that, and for that reason I've never suggested it. When I mentioned lined, I don't mean leaned, I apologise - I should have been clearer and said aligned (but still fastened).

A screw and it's size only become relevant when we see what it's screwed into. Most baths are timber framed, but we'd need to know that before we can be confident. I agree that it looks like something has hit it in the middle, it would need a kick or something to dent it like that.

Ask any plumber if you don't believe bath panels are merely dust covers. They're nearly always very thin plastic, steel or wood, and are for decoration only, they don't need to carry a single ounce of weight. Have a look at your own. You'll be able to dint it with a kick quite easily (don't try this though).

To be honest, I have never seen a bath panel like that. I think it must be for baths that have fancy jacuzzi pipe work, or something. Mine is plastic that runs the length of the bath and can be lifted off. If I kicked it (don't worry, I won't), I think it would probably just crack.

Anyway, strong metal or not, the dead centre deep dent is completely inconsistent with anything falling on to it. I doubt the cricket bat whacked it either, too low....OP would would have to lean down to do that.

Also, the panel is sitting on a tiled surface. Can you tile over wood or plastic?

I think it looks like it's been kicked and he'd have to have his legs on to do that. Intriguing. What was he doing kicking bath panels when once he had his legs on his only concern was getting Reeva out of the toilet? Frustration?

Until we hear what Nel says it's pure supposition admittedly. Maybe the housekeeper will say it's been like that for ages - although there has to be some
reason that he wanted the picture of it entered into evidence - along with the jeans, broken window, damaged bedroom door etc.

Next week will certainly be interesting, whatever happens

 

[MeeBee]

As Lemonmousse pointed out earlier, Oscar's affidavit says he fired the shots, shouted for help on the balcony, then broke down the door with the bat.

Stipp testified that he heard, a set of bangs, a 2nd set of bangs and then a man cry for help.

What does this tell us?, it tells us that when oscar cried for help stipp had alreay heard both set's of bangs and had not yet used the bat.

Edit Not sure this looks like i have quoted myself i was responding to meebee.

But what I'm saying is I don't imagine that the panel being hit or kicked would produce a sound like a gunshot at all, especially if it was kicked. It would sound more hollow and tinny. Stipp says the sounds were the same. Either what he heard was two volleys of shots or gunshots and bat strikes. I don't think it stands to reason what he heard was the panel breaking.

I do acknowledge the inconsistency in the events and Osacr's rebelling of them.

 

[Viper]

As Lemonmousse pointed out earlier, Oscar's affidavit says he fired the shots, shouted for help on the balcony, then broke down the door with the bat.

Stipp testified that he heard, a set of bangs, a 2nd set of bangs and then a man cry for help.

What does this tell us?, it tells us that when oscar cried for help stipp had alreay heard both set's of bangs and had not yet used the bat.

Edit Not sure this looks like i have quoted myself i was responding to meebee.

So the damage to the bathroom we have discussed today is more likely OP did that stuff after he killed her? That would make sense to me.

 

[MeeBee]

So the damage to the bathroom we have discussed today is more likely OP did that stuff after he killed her? That would make sense to me.

I don't think we can say for sure when it was even done. Neither the state nor Oscar has offered any explanation for it. That's certainly a possibility. It could have already been that way since we know Oscar is prone to fits of rage. There's not enough info to glean when or why it happened.