Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

[james83]

That does not indicate guilt to me for 2 reasons: 1. He called Stander and asked Stander to call an ambulance, and 2. Immediately after his call to stander he called Netcare.

No indication that he was trying to hide the fact that he killed Reeva. How do you think it indicates guilt?

Right so if you found your partner slumped over but alive you would phone someone else and ask them to phone an ambulance?.
Also if he asked Stander to phone an ambulance then how come Stander didn't phone an ambulance?.

 

[james83]

Another indication of guilt as pointed out insp.dots post 955, forgetting your whatsapp password despite the fact that he used it thousands of times, yeah right Oscar.

 

[katydid23]

I'm going for a slight win for defense today. Purely because of the slight memory difficulty with Ms. Stipp and her left hand, and my feeling that the messages from the phone were not quite as revealing as perhaps we'd hoped. If I had the phone as evidence, I'd be hoping to have something better like a threat or regular rowing.
(that's the shouting, not the boat and oars).

I don't see today as a win for the defense. The witness hit home her testimony that she and her husband heard a woman screaming in terror. Oldwage did nothing to dismantle that testimony. He poked at her memory with a few glitches. But she corrected one herself, earlier. And the hand in the curtains picture is just a small thing overall. The pix were taken on 2 separate days and she forgot that she was there one time. I don't think that makes her entire testimony moot. jmo

And I think those messages are more powerful than you seem to think they are. It blows up OP's statement that they were both totally HAPPY, w/no problems. It shows his jealousy and his controlling tantrummy behavior. So it makes it more believable that they were fighting that night.
jmo

 

[kittychi]

I agree. If there is evidence in these messages it should be exposed. But private conversations read out (badly) is not evidence of much at all. Reading out the "bad bits" from messages conceded to be 90% loving messages is pushing a false notion. Selective evidence is always questionable. A few arguments in 1000's pages of loving messages.

I was listening and thinking of Reeva's private messages being exposed...

BBM: I just betcha the Defense will have some of those loving messages to read to the court.

 

[minor4th]

But only one appeared to be frightened of the other. And only one was running around trying to cater to the other's every need for fear of upsetting him if she didn't live up to his exacting (and unattainable) standards. There's no indication at all that OP was scared of Reeva.

The messages did indicate that he was not living up to her standards. She was complaining about him and criticizing him after all.

And men and women express emotions differently - if OP was afraid of her snapping at him or criticizing him, he's less likely to express it in such terms. And if he did express it in text messages, you wouldn't expect the state to reveal those.

You are taking a handful of text messages from a couple of incidents and extrapolating that the entire relationship was characterized by Reeva's complaints in those messages. I think that is making too much of just a glimpse.

 

[Feynman]

Calling stander instead of medical help is an indicator of guilt imo, how else can that be explained?.
Put any person in his shoes according to his story and it goes like this "i found(insert name) slumped over but alive", i phoned an ambulance.

Didn't OP ask Stander to phone an ambulance? An argument could be made it would take less time for Stander to call, discuss, give the address etc than for OP to do it in the state he was in. Then OP phoned Netcare.

 

[james83]

Not those specifically - he only expressed that he was unhappy about the way he was treated at times.

I don't think it's fair to say she did everything right and he was an abuser 3 months into the relationship based on a couple of texts. For sure they had issues they were trying to work out, but I don't think much more than that can be concluded about this.

What everyone is saying about him being an abusive boyfriend who got enraged and was violent could be true, but it could also not be true and I think it's too much of a reach to say for sure that is what happened and that's how their relationship was.

To be clear i am not suggesting he was violent, but i think there is clear evidence for emotional abuse.

 

[james83]

Didn't OP ask Stander to phone an ambulance? An argument could be made it would take less time for Stander to call, discuss, give the address etc than for OP to do it in the state he was in. Then OP phoned Netcare.

No i'm sorry just doesn't ring true, if you found your partner slumped over but alive, what is the the natural thing to do?.
Answer is not phone a friend.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Right so if you found your partner slumped over but alive you would phone someone else and ask them to phone an ambulance?.
Also if he asked Stander to phone an ambulance then how come Stander didn't phone an ambulance?.

We really need to hear from Stander and his daughter as well as the live in staff.
The ex boyfriend as well . Thinking of all these witness I am shocked Nel stated the prosecution would rest early this week not unless there is something really really big to be put before the judge tomorrow .

 

[katydid23]

Not those specifically - he only expressed that he was unhappy about the way he was treated at times.

I don't think it's fair to say she did everything right and he was an abuser 3 months into the relationship based on a couple of texts. For sure they had issues they were trying to work out, but I don't think much more than that can be concluded about this.

What everyone is saying about him being an abusive boyfriend who got enraged and was violent could be true, but it could also not be true and I think it's too much of a reach to say for sure that is what happened and that's how their relationship was.

After Sam Taylor testified that he was angry and scary, many here accused her of being a disgruntled ex gf. Don't these texts indicate corroboration for Sam's testimony?

 

[Gryffindor]

:welcome: Gryffindor!

So happy you decided to leave lurkdom and join the discussion!

:seeya: ah thank you Beach, that's very kind :-D x

 

[katydid23]

Didn't OP ask Stander to phone an ambulance? An argument could be made it would take less time for Stander to call, discuss, give the address etc than for OP to do it in the state he was in. Then OP phoned Netcare.

Then why tell security, who was just outside his door, that things were 'fine?'

If he wanted things to go quickly, he could have told them to come and help him transport her to the hospital.

 

[Gryffindor]

No i'm sorry just doesn't ring true, if you found your partner slumped over but alive, what is the the natural thing to do?.
Answer is not phone a friend.

Plus that takes twice as long. No guarantee they'll call for help, as requested. And apparently they didn't. As Stipp was asked to by Stander, at the HOUSE!

 

[crasshopper]

Reeva tells OP she is afraid of him, and you give that no weight at all?

And just because 90% of the convos are 'loving' does not mean that it was not an abusive relationship. Quite the contrary. jmo

I agree completely!

2 weeks before her death, she mentions being scared of him several times and once used the phrase 'Scared Out of My Mind!'

I don't think it's a leap at all given the evidence that he has shot out of frustration before (through the roof) that he got his gun out in anger.

I found Mrs. Stipp to be an EXCELLENT witness, despite the DT's attempts to crack or discredit her. Just because she doesn't clearly remember holding a curtain back on a busy day when forensics were testing her house, measuring and taking photographs for hours in no way discounts the credibility of the testimony of what she heard, a woman screaming followed by 3 shots in rapid succession.

I loved when she responded to defense counsel's attempt to make it seem as though she gave two versions of events based on the use of two different afrikaans words and she firmly accused him of misusing semantics. #TeamAnnette ;-)

 

[james83]

Simple question's, if Reeva and Oscar were out walking around the silverwoods estate and reeva got hit by a car and was seriously injured would Oscar have called Stander or an ambulance?
What about if they were indoors and she collapsed suddenly?, would he call stander first?.
hmmmmmmmmm.

 

[steveml]

No, not from only 3 messages. But in this case, we have other corroborating evidence to fall back upon. We have Sam's testimony, that he screamed at her and many of her friends and had lots of jealousy issues, which sometimes included shooting off firearms. We have 5 ear witnesses that heard a woman screaming in fear,and we have a woman with four black talons tearing her apart.

So, from the above we have Sam's testimony, the ex-girlfriend who alleged he cheated on her. Does screaming or shouting at someone constitute an abusive relationship? My dad has lost his temper with my mum lots of times, they've both yelled at each other many times. Their relationship isn't at all abusive. If Sam has included her friends in her testimony it's not been corroborated for some reason and as such is not evidence.

Jealousy is only attributable to an abusive relationship if you act upon it.

The shooting off of firearms you mentioned has nothing whatsoever to do with an abusive relationship.

The Black Talon bullets have nothing whatsoever to do with an abusive relationship.

What do we have left from the above? All we have left is that same old chestnut yet again. The ear-witnesses.

 

[james83]

Plus that takes twice as long. No guarantee they'll call for help, as requested. And apparently they didn't. As Stipp was asked to by Stander, at the HOUSE!

exactly, and i guarantee that if you ask a thousand people the question
"you find you partner slumped over but alive" after being shot, who should you phone?, you would get a thousand answers that were all the same.

 

[Gryffindor]

I'm still curious as to why Olwadge enquired about dogs barking when this hasn't even been mentioned by ANYONE, never mind Oscar. And certainly them definitely barking hasn't even been ascertained! Random . . .

Hence he moved on VERY swiftly haha!

 

[minor4th]

After Sam Taylor testified that he was angry and scary, many here accused her of being a disgruntled ex gf. Don't these texts indicate corroboration for Sam's testimony?

I think Sam Taylor is a disgruntled ex who had an axe to grind - she was clearly still very upset about the breakup that was over a year ago, and she had tried to sell her big reveal to the newspapers before her lawyers could reign her in and retract her comments. Sam said he was a big meanie, basically, but it seems clear to me that she still wants to hurt him because he hurt her feelings by breaking up with her.

I don't think these texts corroborate anything about Sam's testimony. Sam was talking about him being shouty and yell-y and mean. Reeva describes passive aggressive behavior and immaturity.

 

[Mystymiss]

What says it all to me is OP shot through the solid wood door fired 4 times and hit RS 3 of that 4. (remarkable!) He didn't hear dogs barking (because some so called intruder ) didn't see an intruder because he was to frighten to open the light?????

Well to bad so sad you walk around with a big gun and use it on your invited guess. In my book that is murder no matter how you spell it. NO EXCUSES!!!!!JMO