Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

[BritsKate]

Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's assume he was psychologically abusive. That does not indicate that he murdered her.

No - advancing towards an 'intruder'; using ammunition designed for maximum damage; and shooting three times, into a locked door, after she screamed are plenty indicative. Oscar being psychologically abusive is just potential motive, albeit irrelevant for a conviction.

MOO

 

[soozieqtips]

So Oscar was moody and didn't behave well, or didn't behave the way Reeva liked, on some occasions. He accused her of flirting - and maybe she was or maybe she wasn't. He criticized things about her that she got sad about.

I don't see the real relevance of these messages though, other than to show that they had arguments and issues with each other.

They're relevant because you stated that there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that theirs was anything but a loving relationship. Well, I think the evidence that completely contradicts that came straight from the deceased today. This was not a healthy loving relationship by any stretch of the imagination. The things OP festered about show he was a total control freak, possessive, demanding and from Reeva's own mouth 'scared' her sometimes. What's your definition of an abusive relationship? Also, her meeting her ex for a coffee the day before her murder would not have gone down well with OP... based on factual evidence of his extreme jealousy.

 

[Trooper]

I am still shattered by the extensive screaming Mrs Stipp heard..

extensive.. prolonged.. joined by a man screaming and shooting at the same time .

I cant get past it. I am highly suspicious of anyone who can get past that prolonged screaming.

 

[minor4th]

He was ABUSIVE to her! In one of her messages, she said she was afraid of him.

To minimize his behavior by saying that he was "moody" or "didn't behave well" or "didn't behave the way Reeva liked" (oh - that last one, BTW - a classic tactic of the abuser blaming the victim) - is a flagrant dismissal of the abuse women throughout the world suffer each & every day.

His abuse of Reeva prior to him killing her is completely 100% relevant.

I have no words right now.

Really? From two sets of messages you can conclude all this about the relationship between Reeva and Oscar?

I heard her complaints that he wasn't attentive and acted moody and criticized her. Assuming those things are true, it is not proof of abuse.

I absolutely have no intention of dismissing abuse that women suffer, but to say that these two messages profile an abusive relationship -- so much so that one infers a murderous intent -- diminishes the experience of actual abuse victims.

Maybe it was an abusive relationship, but I do not believe that can be discerned from these messages. Not every jerk is an abuser, and not every pouty and moody guy is an abuser.

 

[kittychi]

All I can really say is if we're seeing evidence of controlling, jealous temper just 3 months into their relationship - I have NO problem believing he deliberately and willfully murdered her, screams or silence.

The overwhelming majority of abusive or controlling relationships form a pattern, especially in the beginning. The abusive or controlling person seeks to make the relationship as intensely close as possible. They whisk the victim off their feet. Abuse, even psychological, is usually slower to evolve. It begins as covert and insidious, with the abuser attempting to establish control over the victim. Otherwise many victims would leave the relationship early on - and the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim to become a homicide victim is when he/she IS leaving...

Which, in turn, begs the question...had she had enough?

IMO this was a textbook example of an abusive relationship. She had been in one before so she was prone, however IMO grew aware that it was happening again to her and she courageously tried to end it.

 

[MeeBee]

There's no passive aggressiveness allowed.

 

[04009margaret]

So Oscar was moody and didn't behave well, or didn't behave the way Reeva liked, on some occasions. He accused her of flirting - and maybe she was or maybe she wasn't. He criticized things about her that she got sad about.

I don't see the real relevance of these messages though, other than to show that they had arguments and issues with each other.

I beg to differ, they are very relevant. They paint a picture, of a relationship that was starting to unravel due to OP's behavior & attitude to RS. It is a complete contrast to the picture OP painted that night. This is classic abuse, they control, mock, demean, belittle. They build you up then knock you down, they destroy your confidence & make you question yourself. In a rage, they are extremely dangerous. I would suggest a visit to a woman's refuge would open your eyes to how soul destroying this behavior is & how quickly it can spiral out of control.

 

[BritsKate]

IMO this was a textbook example of an abusive relationship. She had been in one before so she was prone, however IMO grew aware that it was happening again to her and she courageously tried to end it.

I believe you could well be right - I wonder if her impending speech on domestic violence was a catalyst in a possible decision. She was supposed to give the speech on Valentine's Day.

 

[minor4th]

They're relevant because you stated that there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that theirs was anything but a loving relationship. Well, I think the evidence that completely contradicts that came straight from the deceased today. This was not a healthy loving relationship by any stretch of the imagination. The things OP festered about show he was a total control freak, possessive, demanding and from Reeva's own mouth 'scared' her sometimes. What's your definition of an abusive relationship? Also, her meeting her ex for a coffee the day before her murder would not have gone down well with OP... based on factual evidence of his extreme jealousy.

True, now we are getting some evidence that not everything was always loving and wonderful. I'd be interested in hearing more about their communications leading into the incident.

 

[Insp.Dots]

All I can really say is if we're seeing evidence of controlling, jealous temper just 3 months into their relationship - I have NO problem believing he deliberately and willfully murdered her, screams or silence.

The overwhelming majority of abusive or controlling relationships form a pattern, especially in the beginning. The abusive or controlling person seeks to make the relationship as intensely close as possible. They whisk the victim off their feet. Abuse, even psychological, is usually slower to evolve. It begins as covert and insidious, with the abuser attempting to establish control over the victim. Otherwise many victims would leave the relationship early on - and the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim to become a homicide victim is when he/she IS leaving...

Which, in turn, begs the question...had she had enough?

I agree, though her Valentine's present taken ready to give him would say not. Bless her, she loved him!

 

[soozieqtips]

Scared of him snapping at her. That is a far cry from being scared that he would physically harm her.

If you had been in an abusive relationship, I think you might view Reeva's situation more sympathetically instead of saying the messages showed OP to be just a 'jerk'. He was a lot more than that. Anyone who's been controlled and abused will recognise this pattern of behaviour, and anyone who hasn't been abused would probably at least be able to sympathise with Reeva who was clearly not in a healthy relationship with OP.

 

[Interested Bystander]

reeva to Oscar. 27th January. 16.17... ... am not 100 sure why I am sitting down writing to you, but todayt was one of my best friends engagement, but you are picking on me incessantly.. agh he is going too fast I am not flirting with anyone today I am sick that you made scene ,and how you made me leave the table. we live in a double relationship you are very quick to act , and .. ahg..

I do everything to make you happy, say nothing to rock the boat. you do everything to have tanrums in front of people I am so upset I left darrins party

I am scared of you sometimes, and how you make me frightened. I am not some other ***** I stay with you even when I am scared out of mind.
this typist cant go on) .

That is very telling.

 

[Viper]

I agree with all you say except that he "willfully" murdered her. I personally think if he did know Reeva was behind the door then it would have been in a jealous rage with things getting out of hand. Maybe she wouldn't open the toilet door and he shot at it to open it... I tend that way. And I do recall hearing something about Reeva's ex texting her that night but of course if that's all the phone evidence then it cannot be correct.

BIB. That's funny! When he fired four bullets at her, what do you think his intention was? And just because he was jealous or upset or angry or drunk or scared or felt vulnerable or whatever does not mean he can use those feelings to justify murder. Further, just because he is famous and she was pretty does not mean that he can intentionally kill Reeva and it not be viewed as what it was, murder. Premeditation can take days, months, years, or simply as in this case, minutes or seconds.

 

[jassy writer]

I beg to differ, they are very relevant. They paint a picture, of a relationship that was starting to unravel due to OP's behavior & attitude to RS. It is a complete contrast to the picture OP painted that night. This is classic abuse, they control, mock, demean, belittle. They build you up then knock you down, they destroy your confidence & make you question yourself. In a rage, they are extremely dangerous. I would suggest a visit to a woman's refuge would open your eyes to how soul destroying this behavior is & how quickly it can spiral out of control.

So well said!

 

[minor4th]

If you had been in an abusive relationship, I think you might view Reeva's situation more sympathetically instead of saying the messages showed OP to be just a 'jerk'. He was a lot more than that. Anyone who's been controlled and abused will recognise this pattern of behaviour, and anyone who hasn't been abused would probably at least be able to sympathise with Reeva who was clearly not in a healthy relationship with OP.

How do you know that I haven't been in an abusive relationship?

I do sympathize with Reeva. Those messages are sad, and it seems (at least on these occasions) she was doing too much to please him an accommodate his moodiness when it made her feel badly. If that was an overall characteristic of their relationship, it doesn't sound healthy.

 

[G.bng]

It's a bit sad really. OP is the one on trial, and here prosecution has brought up msgs talking about her drug use and denials that she was ever a stripper. Female victims so often seem to have their history dragged into the mix somehow when they are the victims of violence.....

I suppose if prosecution didn't mention it, defence would have done though....

Yes, so very sad. If in a three months relationship you feel the need to start explaining that your not a stripper or a and your not hitting on others or you cant mention an ex without a bad reaction from the person you are with, something sure isn't healthy there.

 

[Trooper]

Really? From two sets of messages you can conclude all this about the relationship between Reeva and Oscar?

I heard her complaints that he wasn't attentive and acted moody and criticized her. Assuming those things are true, it is not proof of abuse.

I absolutely have no intention of dismissing abuse that women suffer, but to say that these two messages profile an abusive relationship -- so much so that one infers a murderous intent -- diminishes the experience of actual abuse victims.

Maybe it was an abusive relationship, but I do not believe that can be discerned from these messages. Not every jerk is an abuser, and not every pouty and moody guy is an abuser.

considering the death Reeva experienced, its worth working backwards though.. if she hadn't been found bleeding and slaughtered on Oscars hallway, with her blood dripping all down the stairs, it could be easy to blow this stuff off, .. but she didn't just carry on, did she. no. she was plugged 4 times with a black talon bullet..

 

[kittychi]

RS mentioned OP's "tantrums in front of people," suggesting a pattern of acting out in public. How odd for someone like OP whose endorsements require a stellar public image.

I wonder if that's why he "couldn't afford" for the Tasha gun incident to get out. Maybe he'd already had a warning from sponsor(s).

 

[Dr Mattus]

Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's assume he was psychologically abusive. That does not indicate that he murdered her.

It provides (possible) motive.

With means, opportunity presented and taken, witnesses (albeit ear witnesses), a body, and literally a smoking gun it's shaping up as a pretty solid case that he did, indeed, murder her. All we are lacking here is consciousness of guilt from the accused, it seems.

 

[sorrell skye]

I have told my husband he scared me. Not because I was scared of him or scared of him hitting me. He'd never lay a finger on me. But because sometimes he'd get so uncharacteristically angry and fly off the handle that it was scary and I would let him know so he would check himself. This seems a common thing to say to men. That's how I took it when she said "you scare me," or whatever.

Your relationship with your husband is your business.

Reeva is dead. OP killed her. I won't pretend that his abuse of her was the natural manner in which men behave until we women remind them that it's not okay.

I strongly disagree that it's a common thing to tell men that their behavior scares us. As far as I'm concerned, if I find myself telling my partner that his behavior scares me, then I need to reevaluate my relationship with him. I would also tell my daughters the same thing.

I will not make excuses for violent behavior, no matter which form that behavior expresses itself - verbal, emotional, or physical.

Regardless of the form of abuse, it's still abuse.