Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

[kittychi]

There are far too many abusive relationships, and I'm sure everyone on here is equally disturbed by this fact. That said, if you had a look at many mobile phones, and saw those 3 messages, you couldn't automatically attribute them to an abusive relationship. Well, you could, but the couple would both be entitled to disagree and give you a frosty remark.

It's a very emotive issue for people, but it should not influence your reasoning.

BBM: But 3 messages on strangers' mobile phones with no context is not a comparison.

With OP we have been reading the context of his tantrums and controlling history for a year now. Remember the story of the suite mate at the olympics who requested a room change because OP was always on the phone yelling at someone? That is yet another tantrum, rage, anger, "I'll get my way" story.
We all know there are many.

 

[Gryffindor]

So was retrieving the deleted messages/data what Roux and co. referred to with "we cannot stop it" "we can't stop them doing that" ???

 

[Feynman]

I agree to the discrepancy with his statement if it turns out they were still having these problems at the time of the shooting.

There are many comments that have taken the texts and concluded that he was an abuser and have thus concluded that he got caught up in a jealous rage and therefore intentionally shot and killed his girlfriend.

I agree the texts we heard about today don't prove OP was an abuser. (For one thing, we don't have a common definition of "abuser" that we all agree on. I've noticed arguments, especially ones fueled in the later hours of the evening by a beer or three, can rage on simply because different people have different definitions of the topic at hand.)

 

[crasshopper]

This may not be important but did Oscar realize the door was locked before he shot?

Also:

Yeah, she saw the lights on after the shots. But she also said she didn't look out the window until she heard screaming. I really don't believe Mrs Stipp's testimony in its entirety. She has been shown to be either biased towards the prosecution or having a faulty memory.

It's fascinating how two people can have two completely opposite impressions of a witness. I found her incredibly consistent, well spoken and 100% credible. She has no dog in the fight, neither do any of the other neighbors who heard a woman screaming and gunshots.

Her memory did not appear faulty at all. One or two minor discrepant details regarding events from a crime does not a faulty memory make.

Significant differences in OP's trial affidavit vs the one from the bail hearing speak to a "faulty memory" on his part, imo, as does his inability to remember his WhatApp password...

 

[Suthrnqt]

Hi everyone. Lovely to meet you all. I've just become a member, having accessed and read all your riveting posts for ages. Thank you admin

In light of recent evidence, possibly a case of: if I can't have you, no-one can. Imo I'm erring towards guilty, personally.

Welcome!!!

 

[minor4th]

This may not be important but did Oscar realize the door was locked before he shot?

Also:


It's fascinating how two people can have two completely opposite impressions of a witness. I found her incredibly consistent, well spoken and 100% credible. She has no dog in the fight, neither do any of the other neighbors who heard a woman screaming and gunshots.

Her memory did not appear faulty at all. One or two minor discrepant details regarding events from a crime does not a faulty memory make.

Significant differences in OP's trial affidavit vs the one from the bail hearing speak to a "faulty memory" on his part, imo, as does his inability to remember his WhatApp password...

Did you see the part where she said she wasn't present when the photos were taken in her bedroom and then it was proved that it was she holding the curtain back?

That's a pretty good indication that she is not being truthful or that her memory cannot be trusted.

 

[kittychi]

The messages did indicate that he was not living up to her standards. She was complaining about him and criticizing him after all.

And men and women express emotions differently - if OP was afraid of her snapping at him or criticizing him, he's less likely to express it in such terms. And if he did express it in text messages, you wouldn't expect the state to reveal those.

You are taking a handful of text messages from a couple of incidents and extrapolating that the entire relationship was characterized by Reeva's complaints in those messages. I think that is making too much of just a glimpse.

BBM: Her standards clearly being a healthy, happy and loving relationship. He deserved to be called out for his inexcusable and immature behavior.

I would venture that any of us would criticize a partner having a tantrum in pubic when in our company!

My theory: She figured out he was not going to be capable of living up to her dream, okay standards, of wanting to love and be loved and she intended to leave the relationship.

 

[minor4th]

BBM: Her standards clearly being a healthy, happy and loving relationship. He deserved to be called out for his inexcusable and immature behavior.

I would venture that any of us would criticize a partner having a tantrum in pubic when in our company!

My theory: She figured out he was not going to be capable of living up to her dream, okay standards, of wanting to love and be loved and she intended to leave the relationship.

She complained about him buying rabbits and wondering who he had a past with that had anything to do with rabbit things.

Both of their texts indicate to me that they both had jealousy and insecurity issues and had unreasonable expectations of each other.

 

[Gryffindor]

Welcome!!!

Thank you sweetie pie x

 

[kittychi]

He could have just left it to the Stipps?..oh wait...

You have to wonder what would have happened had Dr. Stipps not run over there to help. I shudder to think.

 

[Gavel Rash]

She complained about him buying rabbits and wondering who he had a past with that had anything to do with rabbit things.

Both of their texts indicate to me that they both had jealousy and insecurity issues and had unreasonable expectations of each other.

Slightly skewed reasoning......as she had written she had observed his seeming emotional attachment with rabbity things and that she didn't feel any jealosy or need to accuse him of pining for the rabbit girl, but he had a major problem with her talking to or referencing her long term boyfriend in convo.

 

[crasshopper]

The messages did indicate that he was not living up to her standards. She was complaining about him and criticizing him after all.

...

You are taking a handful of text messages from a couple of incidents and extrapolating that the entire relationship was characterized by Reeva's complaints in those messages. I think that is making too much of just a glimpse.

On a HANDFUL of occasions approaching the time of her death, Oscar scared the beejeezus out of Reeva. The messages indicate that he has a temper, and one that had been directed at her for no good reason. The texts are incredibly relevant. "Tempers" oft indicate a lack of control an inability to handle or resolve conflict in a mature manner.

As a informed experienced gun owner, we are asked to believe that OP was unable to control his "fear" (according to his version of events) and responded to the perceived threat with deadly force.

"I put to you" that when couples have a history of escalated, heated arguments, that it doesn't take much to trigger that dynamic again.
And independent witnesses have attested to hearing an argument earlier.

As for the fact that these texts represent only a glimpse. We have other evidence, if inadmissible of more than one instance of Police being called to OP's house for "domestic disturbances" . It often only takes a few strokes of a brush to paint a picture...

 

[crasshopper]

Did you see the part where she said she wasn't present when the photos were taken in her bedroom and then it was proved that it was she holding the curtain back?

That's a pretty good indication that she is not being truthful or that her memory cannot be trusted.

That is a MINOR discrepency. Immaterial to the crux of the case. There were 2 days when forensics were at her house. So she forgot she held a curtain back for them. 99% of the time she left them to their own devices. She readily admitted it was her hand when asked and remembered about the second day.

This does NOT speak to her not being truthful in the least.

 

[kittychi]

Really? So a guy who calls his gf a or automatically hates all women?

Within the context of the other traits (mentioned in the post I replied to) of being controlling, abusive, unkind, hurtful and invoking fear, yes.

IMO

 

[minor4th]

On a HANDFUL of occasions approaching the time of her death, Oscar scared the beejeezus out of Reeva. The messages indicate that he has a temper, and one that had been directed at her for no good reason. The texts are incredibly relevant. "Tempers" oft indicate a lack of control an inability to handle or resolve conflict in a mature manner.

As a informed experienced gun owner, we are asked to believe that OP was unable to control his "fear" (according to his version of events) and responded to the perceived threat with deadly force.

"I put to you" that when couples have a history of escalated, heated arguments, that it doesn't take much to trigger that dynamic again.
And independent witnesses have attested to hearing an argument earlier.

As for the fact that these texts represent only a glimpse. We have other evidence, if inadmissible of more than one instance of Police being called to OP's house for "domestic disturbances" . It often only takes a few strokes of a brush to paint a picture...

Respectfully, we have ONE text where Reeva says she's scared of Oscar snapping at her and getting mad at her.

We have texts that indicate he got angry - not that he had a "temper" that he directed at Reeva for no good reason." His display of temper manifested itself in him being unkind and pouty, not aggressive, not violent, not abusive.

There is nothing in those texts that indicate a "history of escalated, heated arguments."

Only one instance of the police being called to his house for domestic issues - and that case was dropped by police when they heard what really happened.

It's not that I disagree with the concept you're describing, but I believe the concept cannot be applied to what we've seen of text messages between Oscar and Reeva. Perhaps you are inferring other events about which we have no evidence, or filtering these interactions through your own experiences and beliefs that may create some bias?

 

[kittychi]

A reference to past girlfriends snookie symbolism for Pistorius by ornaments of bunny orientation.

What?

:waitasec:

.

 

[minor4th]

That is a MINOR discrepency. Immaterial to the crux of the case. There were 2 days when forensics were at her house. So she forgot she held a curtain back for them. 99% of the time she left them to their own devices. She readily admitted it was her hand when asked and remembered about the second day.

This does NOT speak to her not being truthful in the least.

I disagree.

 

[Gavel Rash]

"There are literally hundreds of NGO’s raising funds and being hyper-active in the development of rhino-security, but I don’t see the same level of commitment and consciousness for supporting a handful of NGO’s doing amazing work in this space of woman and child abuse, and specifically domestic violence. There’s a skewed sense of reality here. IMHO.

There is now no doubt that the Oscar Pistorius case is one of domestic violence that is certainly being proven to have been utterly uncalled for. The law will take its course in the our courts, but there is irrefutable evidence of a wrongful use of force that has resulted in an ugly and most tragic loss of life.

THAT is the crux of domestic violence."

http://vivaafrika.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/oscar-pistorius-reeva-steenkamp-a-shattered-dream/

 

[minor4th]

Slightly skewed reasoning......as she had written she had observed his seeming emotional attachment with rabbity things and that she didn't feel any jealosy or need to accuse him of pining for the rabbit girl, but he had a major problem with her talking to or referencing her long term boyfriend in convo.

You're right about that. I had forgotten the context in which she wrote the message. My bad

 

[Gavel Rash]

Some past love called him Mr Rabbit cause he could keep it hard all night?...Im not entirely sure...but it seems a 'pet' name.