Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Carol70]

I firmly believe that even in the best case scenario for Oscar, which is obviously the judge believing his story, he will be sentenced to 15 years in prison, that's as good as it will get for him, imo.

Of which he will serve 2-3years!

 

[seattlechiquita]

From CNN's article on today's proceedings: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/25/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

In one exchange, Steenkamp asked Pistorius if she could wear a leopard-print dress to an event.

dafuq?!?!? ASKED HIM if she could wear this or that? What kind of crazy controlling relationship was this?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Was this previously shared/ is it kosher? Because I am in huge OMG mode:

https://twitter.com/justteaplease/status/448168967098863616/photo/1

I am a bit late with this, sorry. Yes, it's real and we have had posts on it. Some of the guys think it is nothing special and doesn't mean much, most (but not all) of the girls think he is abusive.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I am a bit late with this, sorry. Yes, it's real and we have had posts on it. Some of the guys think it is nothing special and doesn't mean much, most (but not all) of the girls think he is abusive.

Oh, that is abusive. She was a class act, and would have not sent such a long message without forethought and VERY careful consideration of her words, specially since she knew psycho would not react like a normal person to her words.

This is what I think: RS was strong and had her made made up as to what she wanted and needed in a partner. She gave OP a chance, or more, to be a better man and become that partner. This one (OP) has the lowest opinions of women in general and thought he could control and manipulate this woman --- he could not. So when the lights went off, he murdered her.

 

[TorisMom003]

OK, so however the shots are juggled to make them fit, we still have to remember that there is no murder benefit in OP allowing the victim to scream for any real length of time.

Unless he wanted to get caught.

For Reeva to be screaming for any substantial length of time, he would have probably needed to taunt her through the door for a while, similar to the Jack Nicholson scene in The Shining.

Entirely possible, yes. Plausible?

Oh I doubt that he wanted her screaming at all. However, there is nothing in his statement that she even screamed. He and his defense lawyers want Reeva screaming to be completely pushed aside, to make it where it never happened.

If an argument started before Reeva went for the toilet room, and OP was threatening her then I see it completely plausible that she was screaming without him needing to taunt her through the door. There is no proof (other than OP stating so) that he did not get the gun until after Reeva was in the toilet room behind a closed door.

I do not believe OP's story. I do believe that there are bits that are truth in there but I believe that they are being attributed to OP when actually it was Reeva that stated/screamed/said/did them. OP has a reason to lie about the events of that night. He shot and killed an unarmed woman that was behind the closed door of a small toilet room with no where to go to get out of the way of 4 shots being fired at her. He has proven that he has an extremely bad temper, that he is completely irresponsible with firearms even though he knows the proper way to handle them. In order for me to believe OP he will have to take the stand and explain that he lied in certain parts of his statement out of fear of a lengthy prison time and then he will need to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth including hearing Reeva scream and how he truthfully treated her during their relationship.

MOO

 

[Interested Bystander]

Oh, that is abusive. She was a class act, and would have not sent such a long message without forethought and VERY careful consideration of her words, specially since she knew psycho would not react like a normal person to her words.

This is what I think: RS was strong and had her made made up as to what she wanted and needed in a partner. She gave OP a chance, or more, to be a better man and become that partner. This one (OP) has the lowest opinions of women in general and thought he could control and manipulate this woman --- he could not. So when the lights went off, he murdered her.

I think the judge will read it that way too. It is a scenario she is used to dealing with and knows a lot about.

 

[steveml]

Do y'all think OP would likely help himself by testifying? I don't. His courtroom theatrics have been so over the top that I now see them as defense strategy contrived to affect the judge and allow Roux to claim "the incident" left OP too emotionally shattered to take the stand.

If OP does testify, I expect he'll amp-up his antics and add loud wailing and visible shaking to his repertoire.

That's an interesting point.

I mentioned a while ago that with OP taking the stand he may well incriminate himself further.

If he does, theatrics won't really matter as he's playing to a single Judge and her assistants.

He can take the stand and not speak if he chooses, but the Judge would look very dimly upon this.

I really hope he does, as this is the least he owes Reeva's family.

 

[Carol70]

Wasn't there something from OP himself stating that Netcare told him to bring Reeva himself to the hospital instead of waiting for the ambulance?

Nope, we discussed this at great length last year after the bail hearing. All we had to go on was that a call was placed netcare at 3.20am. We, even now, have no idea what was said during the call. I suggested it because ambulances do take a notoriously long time to arrive and if possible, you try get to the hospital instead of waiting for an ambulance (depending on the nature of injury of course). I also speculated that the hospital told him to bring her in for a reason as to why the car may have been in the driveway, door open, idling. However, today I saw it was netcare ambulance service he called and NOT the actual hospital...they have excellent response times so should have been there very soon after the call.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I personally do not think he will testify. He knows he has to stick to his affidavit (which has already been modified, go figure) and anything else he opens the door to, Nel will drive through with a bulldozer.

I also think he is convinced he will get away with this. He is the one and only, South Africa's golden boy, bla bla bla. Me thinks :jail:

 

[curiousjo]

The reason why there is a pause between the 1st and 2nd gun shots is because "the target" fell to the ground, so OP had to change the angle of the gun. He either heard her fall/scream or saw her fall.

The 1:48 am phone use lasting 5 minutes is important - OP was awake, not sleeping- just prior to heated argument, screaming and gun shots.

 

[Really?]

I firmly believe that even in the best case scenario for Oscar, which is obviously the judge believing his story, he will be sentenced to 15 years in prison, that's as good as it will get for him, imo.

My DH says 13 yrs max

Does anyone know what the betting stats in the UK are for this case?

 

[TorisMom003]

Nope, we discussed this at great length last year after the bail hearing. All we had to go on was that a call was placed netcare at 3.20am. We, even now, have no idea what was said during the call. I suggested it because ambulances do take a notoriously long time to arrive and if possible, you try get to the hospital instead of waiting for an ambulance (depending on the nature of injury of course). I also speculated that the hospital told him to bring her in for a reason as to why the car may have been in the driveway, door open, idling. However, today I saw it was netcare ambulance service he called and NOT the actual hospital...they have excellent response times so should have been there very soon after the call.

Thank you Carol for that. However, I decided to read OP's bail statement to make sure. I found the following:

Page 7
16.16
"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door."
Page 8
16.17
"I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms."

So then, who exactly told OP to not wait for paramedics but to take her to the hospital? Was it Stander or was it Netcare? Or was it OP lying?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Wasn't there something from OP himself stating that Netcare told him to bring Reeva himself to the hospital instead of waiting for the ambulance?

Yes exactly .. he mentioned that in the affidavit

I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.
I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.

 

[Carol70]

Thank you Carol for that. However, I decided to read OP's bail statement to make sure. I found the following:

Page 7
16.16
"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door."
Page 8
16.17
"I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms."

So then, who exactly told OP to not wait for paramedics but to take her to the hospital? Was it Stander or was it Netcare? Or was it OP lying?

Oh LOL...thanks for that!! I am now certain is was netcare who DID tell him to rather take her in. I can't recall if if was stander or the IO when he testified, that said when stander arrived..OP asked him to drive her to the hospital but he said no, he would rather call paramedics. (Actually think it may have been his daughter who told the IO this).

I really hope we get a transcript or get to hear the infamous Netcare call before the end of this trial.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Oh LOL...thanks for that!! I am now certain is was netcare who DID tell him to rather take her in. I can't recall if if was stander or the IO when he testified, that said when stander arrived..OP asked him to drive her to the hospital but he said no, he would rather call paramedics. (Actually think it may have been his daughter who told the IO this).

I really hope we get a transcript or get to hear the infamous Netcare call before the end of this trial.

I have always mistrusted that. I can't imagine a service telling anyone to MOVE a shotgun victim to a hospital. Maybe I am just inexperienced. I don't know. I do wonder why Nel didn't bring this up in his case in chief.

 

[Really?]

Oh I doubt that he wanted her screaming at all. However, there is nothing in his statement that she even screamed. He and his defense lawyers want Reeva screaming to be completely pushed aside, to make it where it never happened.

If an argument started before Reeva went for the toilet room, and OP was threatening her then I see it completely plausible that she was screaming without him needing to taunt her through the door. There is no proof (other than OP stating so) that he did not get the gun until after Reeva was in the toilet room behind a closed door.

I do not believe OP's story. I do believe that there are bits that are truth in there but I believe that they are being attributed to OP when actually it was Reeva that stated/screamed/said/did them. OP has a reason to lie about the events of that night. He shot and killed an unarmed woman that was behind the closed door of a small toilet room with no where to go to get out of the way of 4 shots being fired at her. He has proven that he has an extremely bad temper, that he is completely irresponsible with firearms even though he knows the proper way to handle them. In order for me to believe OP he will have to take the stand and explain that he lied in certain parts of his statement out of fear of a lengthy prison time and then he will need to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth including hearing Reeva scream and how he truthfully treated her during their relationship.

MOO

excellent.....:goodpost:......things that make ya go hhhmmmmm

 

[Cherwell]

The gap between the first and second shots are therefore critical to determine the length of screaming.

If we fire a shot, pause for two seconds and fire another, the second that bullet hits the brain the screaming stops. That is one thing that cannot be disputed - any sound stops dead.

That's not what the pathologist said though. He said that a scream would be an involuntary reaction, and could continue after the shot to the brain. That surprised me, as I too thought it would stop instantly, but apparently not.

 

[Carol70]

I have always mistrusted that. I can't imagine a service telling anyone to MOVE a shotgun victim to a hospital. Maybe I am just inexperienced. I don't know. I do wonder why Nel didn't bring this up in his case in chief.

To be honest, I guess Nel didn't bring it up because it's not at all that unusual. I myself had to call our local emergency number last year when a bank of batteries (full of acid) exploded into the face of one of the workers. Any man on this forum will know how very serious this is. We all stood helplessly watching the ambulance drive up and down the wrong road looking for our factory despite us giving clear instructions on where we were located and we could actually see them driving around. A college eventually drove him to hospital 45 mins later.

 

[steveml]

I personally do not think he will testify. He knows he has to stick to his affidavit (which has already been modified, go figure) and anything else he opens the door to, Nel will drive through with a bulldozer.

I also think he is convinced he will get away with this. He is the one and only, South Africa's golden boy, bla bla bla. Me thinks :jail:

It's extremely likely OP will testify.

The charge of intention he faces is tested subjectively, so the Judge will want to know his state of mind and perceptions before and during the shooting.

Without this information all the Judge has to work from is the small amount of information in OP's bail affidavit, and testimony from when people arrived at the scene. He really would be leaving it in the hands of the Judge.

 

[steveml]

That's not what the pathologist said though. He said that a scream would be an involuntary reaction, and could continue after the shot to the brain. That surprised me, as I too thought it would stop instantly, but apparently not.

Can't say it's impossible, but never ever seen that. Not even in the movies, and they do exaggerate :smile:

I guess involuntary reaction is one of those court things that is used to explain away unknowns.

If an involuntary reaction can explain something like that, the defense would have no problem in suggesting that one of those bullets in the leg could certainly send you into a state of shock, and you would therefore not scream.

The unknown will probably remain the unknown unfortunately.