Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Gryffindor]

I also believe he changed his affidavit and BH to "he spoke to Reeva shortly before bringing the fans in" to make him missing her getting up to go to the bathroom sound more plausible. i.e. She was awake, otherwise his previous claim would've inferred she was sleep walking to the bathroom :-\

Transparent

 

[nastasya]

Approximate timelines of two scenarios:

hypothetical timeline 1:

• 1:48 to 1:53 OP's phone accesses internet, fight begins
• 1:53 to 2:55 arguing, RS decides to leave
• 2:55 RS goes in bathroom, OP follows RS into bathroom. OP yells at RS to get out of his house. OP locks her inside toilet.
• 3:00 RS threatens to call police when she gets out, and OP tells her to go ahead and call the police.
• 3:09 OP's tantrum gets worse. Bang Bang Bang Bang is OP hitting bathtub plate with cricket bat, then toilet door.
• 3:10 RS screaming inside locked stall, threatens to call police on OP
• 3:12 OP can't let her out or she'll call the police, but can't stop her screaming through the open window above the toilet for help.
• 3:13 OP mocks RS's screams for help. She still won't stop screaming.
• 3:14 OP gets gun threatens to shoot RS if she doesn't shut up. RS sees OP through the broken crack in the door and screams in terror.
• 3:16 OP shoots hitting RS in the hip. She falls, still screaming even louder. OP re-aims and shoots three more times. First shot misses, next hits RS in the arm, final shot hits RS in the head.

Killer's proposed timeline:

• 3:13 OP wakes up, goes gets fans
• 3:13 RS wakes up, goes to bathroom to pee
• 3:14 OP hears noise in the bathroom, gets gun
• 3:15 OP shoots RS through toilet door
• 3:16 OP goes back in bedroom, opens door and screams for help, puts on legs, goes back kicks bathroom door, goes get cricket bat, goes hits door.

Now here's the problem for OP. Here are the approximate timelines with events which are supported by witnesses' testimony and OP's own affidavit, highlighted in red:

hypothetical timeline 1:

• 
  [*]1:48 to 1:53 OP's phone accesses internet, fight begins
  [*]1:53 to 2:55 arguing, RS decides to leave
• 2:55 RS goes in bathroom, OP follows RS into bathroom. OP yells at RS to get out of his house. OP locks her inside toilet.
• 3:00 RS threatens to call police when she gets out, and OP tells her to go ahead and call the police.
  [*]3:09 OP's tantrum gets worse. Bang Bang Bang Bang is OP hitting bathtub plate with cricket bat, then toilet door.
• 3:10 RS screaming inside locked stall, threatens to call police on OP
• 3:12 OP can't let her out or she'll call the police, but can't stop her screaming through the open window above the toilet for help.
• 3:13 OP mocks RS's screams for help. She still won't stop screaming.
• 3:14 OP gets gun threatens to shoot RS if she doesn't shut up. RS sees OP through the broken crack in the door and screams in terror.
• 3:16 OP shoots hitting RS in the hip. She falls, still screaming even louder. OP re-aims and shoots three more times. First shot misses, next hits RS in the arm, final shot hits RS in the head.

Killer's proposed timeline:

• 3:13 OP wakes up, goes gets fans
• 3:13 RS wakes up, goes to bathroom to pee
• 3:14 OP hears noise in the bathroom, gets gun
• 3:15 OP shoots RS through toilet door
• 3:16 OP goes back in bedroom, opens door and screams for help, puts on legs, goes back kicks bathroom door, goes get cricket bat, goes hits door.

Some of the times are approximate.

 

[MeeBee]

I also believe he changed his affidavit and BH to "he spoke to Reeva shortly before bringing the fans in" to make him missing her getting up to go to the bathroom sound more plausible. i.e. She was awake, otherwise his previous claim would've inferred she was sleep walking to the bathroom :-\

Transparent

I dont think that helps him. Wouldn't it be more helpful to omit the part about talking to Reeva to further bolster his claim that he didn't know it was her in the bathroom? So he could say he didn't even know she was awake?

 

[Gryffindor]

If OP testifies- will it be behind closed doors and confidential?

Allegedly, audio relay but not televised

 

[MeeBee]

Allegedly, audio relay but not televised

That sucks...I don't understand. We already know what he looks like?

 

[Val1]

I dont think that helps him. Wouldn't it be more helpful to omit the part about talking to Reeva to further bolster his claim that he didn't know it was her in the bathroom? So he could say he didn't even know she was awake?

Not if there had already been reports that a witness had heard a man and woman just before everything went south... they probably thought that would cover it.

 

[MeeBee]

Not if there had already been reports that a witness had heard a man and woman just before everything went south... they probably thought that would cover it.

I'm sorry, I'm confused.

The crying was after the last volley. It was identified as Oscar, which must have been true because Reeva was already dead. I don't understand the rest of the point of what you're saying?

 

[MeeBee]

Ooooooh, wait, no I understand now. Haha.

ETA: Wait, maybe I don't...

 

[Gryffindor]

I dont think that helps him. Wouldn't it be more helpful to omit the part about talking to Reeva to further bolster his claim that he didn't know it was her in the bathroom? So he could say he didn't even know she was awake?

Or more to aid his claim of "it must be Reeva in there" after he'd shot and noticed her not in bed??

 

[Gryffindor]

That sucks...I don't understand. We already know what he looks like?

I think more the case of wanting to hide body language, not opening himself up to public scrutiny and "giving himself away" IMO

 

[Carol70]

TY Carol!

//snipped for space

But then he spent the majority of his text excusing his behavior and blaming Reeva for his actions. I've no doubt that in his mind he thought he was 'explaining' his behavior. But, in reality, he was justifying his behavior and blaming Reeva for why he said & did some of the things he said & did. As far as I'm concerned, that's not a sincere apology. He was basically saying it was Reeva's fault he acted the way he did, and if she would change her behavior then he wouldn't get so mad at her and mistreat her. I think he was trying to manipulate her, rather than actually taking personal responsibility.

Here's a link to an 'apology' text he sent Reeva. Zwiebel posted it upthread:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 17

You raised some excellent points and I see what you mean now. Seems you actually may be right.

 

[Carol70]

So if it's not possible the killer shot Reeva in the head at 3:17 when do you think he killed her?

To be honest, I don't have any idea, I'm working with what the evidence and expert witnesses has told us. (Barring the screaming lady and what other witnesses may or may not have just heard)

I still find his story quite plausible and possible, there has been nothing to indicate anything otherwise despite falling off the fence numerous times in the beginning of trial, I'm firmly back on the line. i am not in any way denying he killed her, that has clearly been established...I'm just not certain of the circumstances.

 

[MeeBee]

I don't know. I thought if we'd learn anything from the JA trial and ALV is that it's often not a good idea to assume that all the nuances and complexities of a relationship can all be figured out from nothing but texts. And there were very few here. You can't "go behind the words" to try figure out what the person was saying when they aren't here to explain what it meant. We cannot possibly do that. I thought that was good lesson but I guess not. I see a lot of assumptions being made and conclusions being drawn based on very little and it's a little frustrating. I think if you have a preconceived notion going into something then you will look for every little thing, even innocuous things, to confirm out suspicions. I see people raising very questionable points as evidence that Oscar must have been a controlling abusee who had poor Reeva under his thumb. For instance the dress thing. Maybe she was just making sure that the leopard print dress was nice enough for the event. Or asking him if he wanted her to come over as an example of his controlling nature because she had to ask permission? What? That seems a normal thing to ask. Or him always asking her to let him know she's safe as further evidence of his suffocating control over her. Maybe he just genuinely worried about her and wanted to make sure she was safe. My husband is JUST like that because his mom is just like that. They're worry worts. It's just as silly as saying TA is an abuser because he asked Jodi to empty her voice mail without saying please. I realize the difference here is Oscar is the killer and not the killee. But I still feel it's important to understand that there is just no way to know exactly what was going on with them or their relationship or what was going on in the texts. To quote the great Alyce Laviolette: "90% of all communication is nonverbal."

Now I realize this post is going to get a lot of flack and draw a lot of ire. But I have to say it. There's gotta be a balance, right? I just feel like the texts are being blown WAY out of proportion.

:rant:
*takes cover*

 

[lisasalinger]

I dont think the screaming was immediate. The accounts of this have differed and evolved.

I also dont think it was 19 minutes - I don't believe the Stipp's clocks were as fast as they say. They couldnt have been actually because Stander called security at 3:16:51 and heard the second bangs at that time - and Mrs. Stipp said she heard the bangs at exactly 3:17. So their clocks were about accurate.

You have a few items incorrect in there that I bolded.

Ok, so let's say it really was 3:02am. The gunshots that kill Reeva are at 3:02am.

And the call to Baba was at 3:15:51 per phone records read in court. He had already heard the 2nd set of bangs by the time he got through to Baba. So they had to have happened 3:15 or earlier.

So from 3:02 to 3:15, that is 13 minutes. This is still a heck of a long time to break down the door. Doesn't match OP's story.

And from 3:02 to 3:19, that is 17 minutes. He didn't call Stander until 17 minutes after he killed her. Doesn't match OP's story.

 

[nastasya]

To be honest, I don't have any idea, I'm working with what the evidence and expert witnesses has told us. (Barring the screaming lady and what other witnesses may or may not have just heard)

I still find his story quite plausible and possible, there has been nothing to indicate anything otherwise despite falling off the fence numerous times in the beginning of trial, I'm firmly back on the line. i am not in any way denying he killed her, that has clearly been established...I'm just not certain of the circumstances.

Yes, obviously he killed her. But you stated it was impossible that he killed her at 3:17.

If not 3:17, then when, based on your understanding of the evidence presented?

 

[Carol70]

He wouldn't have been "blind", he would have been peering around the door jamb with the gun trained on the toilet door. Classic position which we have all seen in countless action dramas. Plus he would have been a little further away from the "intruder".

The fact of the matter is we cannot possibly know how one would react when faced with the same scenario, we can all sit in our arm chairs and claim to be able to hold our wits and think rationally but more often than not, we don't.

Many years ago, I was confronted with a flasher sitting in his car when he called me over to ask for directions...I got such a shock, I back tracked and ran off in horror...oh, how I wished afterwards that I maintained my composure and burst out laughing, pointing at his small wiener before kicking a huge dent in his car door lolol. I know not quite the same thing but I don't know how people can't see that sometimes it's impossible to predict how we would react when faced with a perceived threat and that quite possibly, the same thing happened to OP and he wasn't thinking that he was in some kind of Hollywood movie and should do a number of certain things to maintain his safety.

 

[Carol70]

Yes, obviously he killed her. But you stated it was impossible that he killed her at 3:17.

If not 3:17, then when, based on your understanding of the evidence presented?

Oh lol sorry...I would imagine she was killed after the volley of shots heard by burger just after 3 ( also heard by Mr babas colleague at the same time). Shots starting anywhere between 2.55-3.05 depending on witnesses clocks. 4 shots heard, and there is absolutely no dispute there were only 4 shots fired.

 

[Carol70]

Plus, bat used 1st or 2nd upon door and in what manner, stumps or legs could surely be quantified by fingerprint/palm placement on rubber handle covering which was removed . . . . . ?

I don't think the rubber handle has any bearing...not all bats have rubber handles and I dont think his bat was one that was actually used for cricket since it had a few autographs of famous cricketers.

 

[nastasya]

The fact of the matter is we cannot possibly know how one would react when faced with the same scenario, we can all sit in our arm chairs and claim to be able to hold our wits and think rationally but more often than not, we don't.

Many years ago, I was confronted with a flasher sitting in his car when he called me over to ask for directions...I got such a shock, I back tracked and ran off in horror...oh, how I wished afterwards that I maintained my composure and burst out laughing, pointing at his small wiener before kicking a huge dent in his car door lolol. I know not quite the same thing but I don't know how people can't see that sometimes it's impossible to predict how we would react when faced with a perceived threat and that quite possibly, the same thing happened to OP and he wasn't thinking that he was in some kind of Hollywood movie and should do a number of certain things to maintain his safety.

The problem with this theory is that there was nothing to perceive as threatening. There was a woman sharing his bedroom. He went outside. He came back in and heard the sounds of the woman in the bathroom.

Where is the perceived threat? Do you think OP never heard RS use his bathroom before?

 

[kaos]

Does anybody know if the curtains were open when the police got there or were the curtains opened for the purpose of photographing the scene?

I was also thinking about the bathroom light that Roux says they can show wasn't working at the time and think the only way that could be proved would be some sort of paperwork detailing a faulty fitting. I don't know if Stander's company would be responsible for the upkeep of the properties on the estate but I'd doubt it.