Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Deleted member 102539]

I think I may have found a picture of the famous leopard dress:

http://www.eonline.com/news/388309/...o-know-about-the-murdered-south-african-model

I think, the dress is very sexy and therefore she prepared him on wearing something like that sometimes and wanted to advance his approval, but no permission. As she has at all persuaded with the tongues of angels for OP to wean his insecurity/jealousy.

My English is minimal; I hope you understand.

 

[Gryffindor]

Thanks for posting that. I concluded the same except I have been trying to work out why Mangena didn't conclude the same too, and as he didn't I thought maybe there is another explanation that I was not seeing. But it seems right. How could Reeva maintain arms up with hands over head if head-shot came before arms unless she got the nick to in-between her two fingers on her left hand from another of the bullets. And for the bullet to the elbow/arm Mantega's opinion was that it was up for that shot too and he lined it up with chest bruising.

I don't understand how some opine the defence doesn't need to prove anything and that the prosecution case has not been proved. IMO the ballistics and screams have in effect proved the prosecution's case. Now the defence expert will have to give an overwhelmingly convincing alternative to show that the head-shot came first because otherwise OP is totally ****** for the screams.

But it doesn't end there, because, if the head-shot came first and Reeva was standing, then, with a fulminating head shot, how, from leaning forward towards the door as the defence is forced to argue for a head-shot to tally with bullet hole heights, fall backwards to land with her back on top of the magazine rack where it is bruised but still with the head raised above toilet pan level so that, by then devoid of any voluntary movement after the head-shot, the upper torso can fall again so as to end with the head tantamount to down the toilet and while at the same time receiving a bullet to the right hip which, if the back is on top of the magazine rack, would on or just above floor height, as well as and another to her right elbow by then limp and hanging, as well as a nick in-between two fingers on her left hand also by then limp and hanging.

And all of this without OP hearing any noises. No noises of a body falling to the floor nor the clatter of it crashing onto the magazine rack, no thud as the head falls on the toilet seat, no moans, grunts, gurgles, thuds or splats. So unless OP testifies between vomits and howls either that he did hear noises and describes them in full, that would leave his defence with a somewhat noisy but invisible intruder/burglar (he heard a window latch from the bedroom and noises in the loo when he entered the bathroom) but a completely silent falling and crashing agonising Reeva. Just not credible.

Plus head shot before arm would have meant she slumped over toilet, rendering right arm shot as 4th shot physically impossible with ballistic visuals factored in. The 4th would've then hit the back wall of cubicle. We need to take over from ballistics man. He can step down. ;-) x

 

[Mango33]

"The state’s 20th witness was a crime expert, who said he found no record in police records of Pistorius having been a victim of crime despite the athlete telling his bail application he had been a victim “on many occasions” previously." [Sydney Morning Herald]

From OP's bail application: "I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night."

Wasn't OP's bail application a legal document whose facts he swore were true? And would a "reasonable man" fearful of intruders keep a 9 mm Parabellus under his bed but sleep with his balcony doors open?
​

I had not interpreted that sentence to necessarily mean at Silver Woods. Just before in his life. I don't know how long he had been at Silverwoods but I thought it wasn't that many years.

I always thought it odd that OP and his lawyers would add that sentence if there was NO evidence or examples in his life of that. I am guessing he had scares earlier in his life.

 

[JuneBug67]

Plus if he genuinely feared for his life, why didn't he put his prosthetic legs on in the 1st place???? It takes him seconds . . . .

I've seen this posted a couple of times now and wondered how we know this. It could be, but are we sure? There are typically silicone liners and often cloth sleeves that have to be put on first so the prostheses fit and stay on. If you feel like you only have seconds to respond you might not want to expend any of them on anything else.

 

[Gryffindor]

I've seen this posted a couple of times now and wondered how we know this. It could be, but are we sure? There are typically silicone liners and often cloth sleeves that have to be put on first so the prostheses fit and stay on. If you feel like you only have seconds to respond you might not want to expend any of them on anything else.

There was a clip posted a few pages back from YouTube, which demonstrates him doing this. It's seconds, literally :-D

 

[nastasya]

Oh lol sorry...I would imagine she was killed after the volley of shots heard by burger just after 3 ( also heard by Mr babas colleague at the same time). Shots starting anywhere between 2.55-3.05 depending on witnesses clocks. 4 shots heard, and there is absolutely no dispute there were only 4 shots fired.

The problem with the killing at 3:00 am is scenario that:

• Witnesses all heard a man and woman's voice after 3:00 am, leading up to the climactic woman's screams of fear and terror, ended by gun shots, and
• Witnesses heard intermingled voices of a man and woman.

The problem for OP in that scenario is:

• His affidavit claims he rushed around after the shooting, hitting the bathroom door at most a few minutes after he killed RS, and
• He waiting 10-15 minutes to call police or an ambulance, knowing RS was shot wounded in the toilet, but still living.

So the early set of bangs being shots contradicts all the testimony. What it doesn't contradict are sounds of things like the bat hitting the panel on the bathtub, the bat hitting the toilet door, and the bat hitting the bedroom door, or even OP pounding his fists against the toilet door or kicking it like he claims to have done.

 

[Insp.Dots]

He went towards the danger not away from it.

IMO under SA law the questions will be whether that was a reasonable response. Then whether it was a reasonable response to shoot blind 4 times into a door and whether it was reasonable to assume it was an intruder, and whether it foreseeable that shooting 4 times through a door knowing a person was on the other side could possibly cause death.

He went towards danger 'with a gun'. Doesn't necessarily mean he was feeling 'confident'.
I agree that in SA law the 4 shots show Murder. But from what one media source was saying the defender's case will be OP at the time of this event was not 'A reasonable person or acting as one's.
I'm guessing this will be in the hope of getting a much lesser sentence, but only time will tell.

 

[nastasya]

Yes WE know that, OP didn't/ couldn't have known that during that minute/s of hearing a noise and shooting if we go by his statement.

Surely you can appreciate that maybe, just possibly, he didn't stand around scratching his head wondering what to do and if he was actually hearing what he thought he was hearing. He heard noise, grabbed gun, moving quickly, shouting and shot before even wondering wth was going on.

No, actually, I can't appreciate that even possibly a grown man who has shared his room with a woman could even possibly get out of bed, leave the bedroom, return to the bedroom, hear a noise in the bathroom then grab his gun and start firing through the toilet door without confirming he wasn't about to kill his house mate.

For the defense to ask we suspend belief about the ordinary and make it extraordinary in the mind of the killer is neither reasonable, nor supported by the 5 witnesses who heard a woman's voice arguing and screaming in terror.

 

[Insp.Dots]

What does surprise me a little is that he seems very happy that she wears a dress that, IMO, lacks decorum. Is that how he wants her to be perceived? Maybe I am a bit old fashioned but putting one's body on display is a bit tasteless. I would prefer to be known for my good works, intelligence etc, and not for wearing what we would call in the UK a Page 3 dress. Page 3 being the page in a UK rag that shows scantily or provocatively dressed women.

Can understand what you're saying but Reeva was an FHM model and part of that requirement I think would be to indeed (at times) look sexy. OP knew and accepted that, though like many may not have liked other guys oggling her.
She was one of those lucky girls who IMO could do beautiful and sexy in a cloth sack.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I had not interpreted that sentence to necessarily mean at Silver Woods. Just before in his life. I don't know how long he had been at Silverwoods but I thought it wasn't that many years.

I always thought it odd that OP and his lawyers would add that sentence if there was NO evidence or examples in his life of that. I am guessing he had scares earlier in his life.

If that is the case then no doubt we will hear about it from the defence.

 

[DebinGA]

According to his former gf, OP's reaction to danger was to wake her up asking, "Did you hear that?", not to intrepidly race to "face danger" alone.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

No, actually, I can't appreciate that even possibly a grown man who has shared his room with a woman could even possibly get out of bed, leave the bedroom, return to the bedroom, hear a noise in the bathroom then grab his gun and start firing through the toilet door without confirming he wasn't about to kill his house mate.

For the defense to ask we suspend belief about the ordinary and make it extraordinary in the mind of the killer is neither reasonable, nor supported by the 5 witnesses who heard a woman's voice arguing and screaming in terror.

Yes and considering that by leaving the room he was still probably no more than
1 1/2 metres away from her with an open door between them from where Reeva was supposed to be in bed . The balcony is tiny . When she swung her legs over the side of the bed to get up and walk down the side of the bed towards the bathroom she would have had to have walk right by him . I pointed this out and attached a room plan earlier today .This is why I am surprised the Defence would agree for him to say that he had swapped sides for that night because of his shoulder injury .
To my mind that made it less likely not more likely for him not to notice she had got up .
Here is another plan . See how close he would have been to her . The doors were open and the curtains open at that point in time .She didn't have time to get out of that bedroom and all the way down to the toilet in the time it would have taken him to pick up a fan without him seeing or hearing her IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Thanks and for the record, the last photo on the page suggests RS has a rabbit costume too!


(And I swore to stop wondering what the mysterious RS text mention "It's like I see rabbit things in your house, and when we go places you take pics of them..." was!)

On twitter there was the spelling "rabid"?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Can understand what you're saying but Reeva was an FHM model and part of that requirement I think would be to indeed (at times) look sexy. OP knew and accepted that, though like many may not have liked other guys oggling her.
She was one of those lucky girls who IMO could do beautiful and sexy in a cloth sack.

I find it really sad that someone with her ability chose to be an FHM model. She had so much going for her. Why go into glamour model shots. Anyway, I will end it here. She is dead and was quite obviously had a lovely personality and this perhaps is not the time and place to speak of her like this. Unfortunately this all stems from OP "giving permission" (not quite) but she obviously felt she needed to seek his approval of what she could wear.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Ah that explains why the prosecution puta police officer on the stand to confirm statistics ,thought at the time it was just pertaining to his quote fear being over the top but now I realise it was also about proving that he may of lied on his statement . I bet the judge picked up on this immediately .

Yes, I was thinking about this. BUT...IF they can produce a witness to say they were around when he suffered a crime, they could say....OP was attacked/burgled/blackmailed and due to his celebrity decided not to report as it would bring unwanted Media attention.....
He has certainly shown how media savvy he can be at times. IMO..

Just another reason I want to 'see' and HEAR him give his version and face the same questioning that others have.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Plus head shot before arm would have meant she slumped over toilet, rendering right arm shot as 4th shot physically impossible with ballistic visuals factored in. The 4th would've then hit the back wall of cubicle. We need to take over from ballistics man. He can step down. ;-) x

Could 3rd and 4th shots been double tap?

 

[Mango33]

Yes and considering that by leaving the room he was still probably no more than
1 1/2 metres away from her with an open door between them from where Reeva was supposed to be in bed . The balcony is tiny . When she swung her legs over the side of the bed to get up and walk down the side of the bed towards the bathroom she would have had to have walk right by him . I pointed this out and attached a room plan earlier today .This is why I am surprised the Defence would agree for him to say that he had swapped sides for that night because of his shoulder injury .
To my mind that made it less likely not more likely for him not to notice she had got up .
Here is another plan . See how close he would have to be to here . The doors were open . She didn't have time to get out of that bedroom and all the way down to the toilet in the time it would have taken him to pick up a fan IMO

Bib
I totally agree. They basically would have had to almost cross paths in the bedroom or she would have had to squeeze by him while he reached out on the balcony.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Bib
I totally agree. They basically would have had to almost cross paths in the bedroom or she would have had to squeeze by him while he reached out on the balcony.

Yes and even if he were to try and say she rolled over to the other side of the bed to get out there would be as big a time delay as walking round the bed .
I did a little time test and
It takes me 5 seconds tops ( moving slowly ) to step outside ,pick a fan up and turn round but up but ten seconds (moving quickly ) to throw the covers back sit up , get out of bed and walk the distance to be out of site or earshot .
He would be facing the bedroom and dressing room as he came back through the doors .

 

[Cherwell]

(And I swore to stop wondering what the mysterious RS text mention "It's like I see rabbit things in your house, and when we go places you take pics of them..." was!)

This rabbit thing, I imagine he might have various things around the house with rabbits on. Lots of people have a soft spot for a particular animal, bird, flower whatever. My cousin likes pigs, and has lots of pig-themed nicknacks - pig-shaped biscuit barrell, tea caddy etc. A friend has lots of stuff with daffodils on.

Mind you, I wouldn't see it as necessarily being another girlfriend's influence. That seems bizarre to me. I'd have just asked casually. Could be he had pet rabbits as a child, or his mum used to read him 'Peter Rabbit'. Maybe she did ask and he was evasive about it, thought it might seem childish.

 

[Insp.Dots]

That's my blog. I am Juror 13

I am SO thick, just looked all through WS blogs and came back to see link at top of photos.
WOW....it is brilliant, I'm still looking through it but well done.
Excellent Blog.

:yourock: truly!