Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Gryffindor]

Mangena said 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th could have been double tap.

No, quite the opposite. He point blank refused to consider double taps were even an option x

 

[Carol70]

Mangena said 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th could have been double tap.


Hubby an ex-cop, says a double tap is 2 shots to the torso, or to the head.

The head and through the hand shot maybe???

 

[steveml]

Defense has already put forward double tap nonsense. Merely to discredit Reeva screaming, him not hearing the screams and to attempt confusion over order of shots.

Total hogwash! And ballistics, Reeva's injuries, trajectories and ear witnesses are proof that it was 4 individual shots. Weak argument by a desperate defense team!

Double taps are individual shots.

I've provided an earlier post with a (hopefully) concise explanation.

 

[Carol70]

I agree.

Many people have handguns in their houses, handbags, etc., and we can safely assume that none of them have them just to make a noise like a starting pistol, or to wave around to scare someone.

A gun is a very capable killing machine. Anyone that has a gun for self-protection has the intention to kill with it if it has to be used.

There is no such thing as a civilian using a gun and attempting just to maim a target by carefully selecting a part of the body. That job is for trained professionals.

For sure!! I do not dispute that he absolutely intended to kill whoever he thought was behind that door.

 

[Interested Bystander]

The line in the affadavit is

"During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains."

It is unclear to me if that means they were open previously or were opened when the fans were collected.

I think Gerrie Nel's question was based on this sentence as he had nothing else to go on. He chose the "already open" interpretation. It is still not clear to me which is correct.

I am sure Roux would have rejected Nel's comment if it was incorrect.

 

[G.bng]

I've seen this posted a couple of times now and wondered how we know this. It could be, but are we sure? There are typically silicone liners and often cloth sleeves that have to be put on first so the prostheses fit and stay on. If you feel like you only have seconds to respond you might not want to expend any of them on anything else.

1. He was safe in a locked bedroom with a gun at the ready and several mobile phones beside him

2. He was with Reeva who knew how to handle guns so she could have aimed it at the door while he quickly put his prosthetics on.

2. Yes they take seconds to put on, (there is at least one video with OP doing this), but I see what you mean about the paraphernalia. However, considering OP had done this since childhood, kept his legs ready at the bottom of the bed, from my timings watching a few of the many YT videos explaining how to put them on, even with lining and socks it would have taken him less than a minute for both and presumably he could skimp on some details in an emergency. Further, as he claims he is unsteady on stumps, was it wise or reasonable for him to go down a dark passage where the intruder or one of the intruders could be waiting ready to kill him without the advantage of his prosthetics. Was that how he thought to protect his beloved Reeva?

 

[minor4th]

I find it really sad that someone with her ability chose to be an FHM model. She had so much going for her. Why go into glamour model shots. Anyway, I will end it here. She is dead and was quite obviously had a lovely personality and this perhaps is not the time and place to speak of her like this. Unfortunately this all stems from OP "giving permission" (not quite) but she obviously felt she needed to seek his approval of what she could wear.

What exactly is FHM? I keep seeing this reference and no idea what it means.

 

[steveml]

Just a thought here...

If this was a normal witnessed crime and we had two eye-witnesses one that was twice as far away as the other, we would naturally expect the nearer witness to provide more accurate information.

As we're all aware, we do not have eye-witnesses, we only have ear-witnesses.

With this in mind, does that lead anyone to think that the weight of probability for an accurate witness statement should perhaps remain the same.

That the one closest should be the more reliable?

The Stipps - 235 feet from OP's house.
Ms Burger & Husband - 580 feet from OP's house

i.e The Burgers live more than double the distance away from OP's house than The Stipps.

:waitasec:

 

[steveml]

What exactly is FHM? I keep seeing this reference and no idea what it means.

It's 'For Him Magazine', basically a blokes magazine with pictures of women and car talk/lads stuff.

 

[DebinGA]

I read that RS's Valentine gift to OP was a photo album of them together, which she'd brought with her that night. Any mention of OP's gift to her?

I've seen mention that none of the msgs between them read in court contained the words "I love you". True?

 

[Gryffindor]

Double taps are individual shots.

I've provided an earlier post with a (hopefully) concise explanation.[/QUOTE

Yes 4 individual SEPARATE shots I meant. Mangena VEHEMENTLY refuted Roux's proposal of double taps, given Reeva's entry wound locations and corresponding positions her body would've been in whilst receiving them :-( Plus, if a gun rises during bullet release, that doesn't equate, as after the 2nd missed shot, the bullet holes are in a graduating descent line

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Does anyone know when the downstairs window was broken. I'm curious whether or not it was done the same day as RS was killed.

When and how was it broken ?

 

[G.bng]

He went towards danger 'with a gun'. Doesn't necessarily mean he was feeling 'confident'.
I agree that in SA law the 4 shots show Murder. But from what one media source was saying the defender's case will be OP at the time of this event was not 'A reasonable person or acting as one's.
I'm guessing this will be in the hope of getting a much lesser sentence, but only time will tell.

I understand where your coming from, but I think most of what the Judge will be deciding is whether he acted reasonably on so many many things. E.g., was it reasonable to think the noise meant intruder/s, to not wake Reeva, to not immediately phone security, police, etc., to not sit in a locked room aiming at the door until security arrived, to go on stumps down a dark corridor towards danger, to not fire a warning shot or warn he had a gun, to shoot blind at a door of a reduced space knowing one or two persons were inside 4 times with soft nosed bullets, to not think that death could result, to shoot double tap (first is to immobilise second to kill), and I am missing many I am sure...

 

[G.bng]

If that is the case then no doubt we will hear about it from the defence.

And if we do hear from it from the defence, Nel has put his suspicions it is untrue and laid the ground for OP to have to give dates so they can look it up
: - )

 

[Carol70]

OP claimed that as he was walking to the bathroom with gun in hand, he yelled to Reeva to call police. Once in the bathroom OP claimed he then yelled to the "intruder" to get out of his house. IF those two things are true, then the "intruder" already knew he was on his way to the bathroom. Doesn't make sense does it? OP also stated that he didn't want to turn on the bathroom light because the "intruder" would see it (or something to that effect).

He actually wasn't in the bathroom yet, he yelled on the way there so was still in the passage.

Not that I have ever broken into a house, I can imagine that people that do are also on high adrenalin themselves and am very aware that if someone breaks into my house armed with a weapon, they are more than wiling to use it if needs be kwim. Hypothetically if there was an intruder in his loo and he was armed, OP would have been subject to a volley of shots himself.

 

[Viper]

Does anyone have an external link that has the image of the jeans on the ground outside the patio by chance? TIA

 

[Cherwell]

Just a thought here...

If this was a normal witnessed crime and we had two eye-witnesses one that was twice as far away as the other, we would naturally expect the nearer witness to provide more accurate information.

As we're all aware, we do not have eye-witnesses, we only have ear-witnesses.

With this in mind, does that lead anyone to think that the weight of probability for an accurate witness statement should perhaps remain the same.

That the one closest should be the more reliable?

The Stipps - 235 feet from OP's house.
Ms Burger & Husband - 580 feet from OP's house

i.e The Burgers live more than double the distance away from OP's house than The Stipps.

:waitasec:

Not necessarily. People focus on different things. One might notice something which another witness didn't, and vice versa. With people hearing shots (or similar noises), one might count them while the other might be concentrating on where they were coming from.

 

[Carol70]

Just a thought here...

If this was a normal witnessed crime and we had two eye-witnesses one that was twice as far away as the other, we would naturally expect the nearer witness to provide more accurate information.

As we're all aware, we do not have eye-witnesses, we only have ear-witnesses.

With this in mind, does that lead anyone to think that the weight of probability for an accurate witness statement should perhaps remain the same.

That the one closest should be the more reliable?

The Stipps - 235 feet from OP's house.
Ms Burger & Husband - 580 feet from OP's house

i.e The Burgers live more than double the distance away from OP's house than The Stipps.

:waitasec:

I'm sure the defence will call their own neighbours and I think there were a few on the pros list that were not called. I wonder how far away Stander stays away from OP...and if he heard anything?? If Burger, who doesn't even live in that estate heard, surely more people in the immediate surrounds heard things too.

 

[TorisMom003]

He actually wasn't in the bathroom yet, he yelled on the way there so was still in the passage.

Not that I have ever broken into a house, I can imagine that people that do are also on high adrenalin themselves and am very aware that if someone breaks into my house armed with a weapon, they are more than wiling to use it if needs be kwim. Hypothetically if there was an intruder in his loo and he was armed, OP would have been subject to a volley of shots himself.

Which goes with my post. "OP claimed that as he was walking to the bathroom with gun in hand, he yelled to Reeva to call police." Please notice the bolded part. So someone breaks into a home and the homeowner is going to yell to his/her partner to phone police? And the "intruder" is not going to hear this yelling?

What I want to know is what kind of intruder climbs into a second story bathroom window and then makes the decision to turn left and enter a toilet room instead of going for the homeowners and/or valuables?

MOO

 

[Cherwell]

I read that RS's Valentine gift to OP was a photo album of them together, which she'd brought with her that night. Any mention of OP's gift to her?

Not that I know of, but it's not really significant IMO. It was the following day that was Valentines Day, so he could have said he had a surprise planned rather than a tangible present.