Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[G.bng]

That's an interesting thought but not so sure it would sound the same as 1 shot. Double tap shooting is something that requires training and practice. It's not a skill everyone that shoots has. Will be interesting to see if this comes up in the defense strategy. If so, we should hear from trainers, friends or at least someone from the gun range of his ability to so.

Just been doing some research into "double tap" and watched some YT videos about it. It is a shoot to kill technique, first shot to immobilise second to kill. Special forces always use it so that a terrorist won't stay standing to shoot again after a first shot. You wait for (it is a fraction of a second) for the gun to rebound back to original position you first fired, which unbelievably it does, and shoot again. It all happens so quick. I now understand what Mangena meant when he said he would expect if OP had fired with a double tap both shots would have hit around the same area and if he fired two double taps, then all 4 around the same area. And it could be very important because OP is claiming he only wanted to scare the intruder which is why he shot low, so if the defence use the double tap explanation that would be contradictory as it means he probably did mean to kill whoever was behind the door, and in which case the prosecution has their "intent" for murder to stick. jmo

 

[Carol70]

Does anyone have an external link that has the image of the jeans on the ground outside the patio by chance? TIA

It's the first time I've heard of jeans outside but think these are them...

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/72.png

 

[screecher]

He went towards danger 'with a gun'. Doesn't necessarily mean he was feeling 'confident'.
I agree that in SA law the 4 shots show Murder. But from what one media source was saying the defender's case will be OP at the time of this event was not 'A reasonable person or acting as one's.
I'm guessing this will be in the hope of getting a much lesser sentence, but only time will tell.

BBM

IMO, exactly why he should be put away and keep away for life. Does SA have the death penalty?

 

[G.bng]

imo, it doesn't really matter to me how many times and when he was burgled etc, it only takes for it to happen once and the fear becomes ingrained. Our home invasion was a few years ago, we have since moved house and into a better part of the area but we are still fanatical about home security and our safety, even though our invasion was non violent!

I also thought he moved around alot and had homes in various places too?

And I don't blame you being fanatical about home security after suffering a break in, but OP slept with windows open, ladders on the ground outside, two dogs that don't bark, and a broken pane in a downstairs window... doesn't seem very worried, fearful or security conscious to me.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm sure the defence will call their own neighbours and I think there were a few on the pros list that were not called. I wonder how far away Stander stays away from OP...and if he heard anything?? If Burger, who doesn't even live in that estate heard, surely more people in the immediate surrounds heard things too.

You would think so, and we know that Mr Nhlengthwa next door called security, so something must have caused him to do that.

There are a few reasons why people might not hear, I suppose. Listening to music on earphones? In the shower? Sleeping with earplugs? Deaf as a post? lol. No doubt OP's employees didn't hear a thing. :wink:

 

[Feynman]

Was that the interpreter's interpretation of what Merwe's said or Merwe's own words in English(sorry I don't recall and haven't gone back to check just yet).

That's what the interpreter (grrr) said. I don't remember Merwe speaking in English at all.

 

[Viper]

It's the first time I've heard of jeans outside but think these are them...

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/72.png

Thank you!

 

[G.bng]

It wouldn't have to sound like a single shot. Roux bought up that OP could have done 2 double taps.....that got me thinking... maybe due to Mangela's evidence of the stance RS was probably in and the fact one of those was the headshot a double tap could be possible for those two..
Problem is, I'm not clever enough to get further than that so my amazing theory ends there!!! :scared:

I am sure Mangena said that the only double taps could have been the last 3, and after a bit of research I can see what he means because if he is right and Reeva was standing, had the first been a double tap she would have been hit twice round about the same area. This is why special forces use double tap, first to immobilise second to kill so you don't leave an armed terrorist standing ready to shoot again. However rapidly Reeva crumpled to the floor with the hip shot it would not have been quick enough (a double tap is so so quick) for her not to have been hit twice around the hip or a little higher. jmo

 

[Carol70]

Which goes with my post. "OP claimed that as he was walking to the bathroom with gun in hand, he yelled to Reeva to call police." Please notice the bolded part. So someone breaks into a home and the homeowner is going to yell to his/her partner to phone police? And the "intruder" is not going to hear this yelling?

What I want to know is what kind of intruder climbs into a second story bathroom window and then makes the decision to turn left and enter a toilet room instead of going for the homeowners and/or valuables?

MOO

No where does he say he was walking, he claimed "on my way to the bathroom I
screamed words etc". I would imagine he was actually moving as fast as possible.

I don't doubt for a second that a very dedicated intruder can get into a house anyway possible, regardless of security/dogs/people home...and again, hypothetically speaking, if an intruder happened to be in the bathroom and heard OP get up to get the fans, he may have hid in the loo until OP settled again before making his move...who knows, I don't know how the criminal mind works

I have posted this attachment before but will do so again for those who haven't seen it. When there is a will , there is a way.

 

[Carol70]

BBM

IMO, exactly why he should be put away and keep away for life. Does SA have the death penalty?

Sadly not. It was abolished after apartheid ended I think.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

When and how was it broken ?

It has been skipped over so far but introduced into evidence by means of the photographer. Could be brought up at some point .
This again screams to me why no evidence from the live in 's .If we break anything or have something that needs mending we ask staff to arrange for to to be fixed. They should at least have been able to narrow down when it was done .
Maybe though the staff have been interviewed and just confirmed it had been done for a long time ,that being the case why include the photo's at all ?

 

[Carol70]

And I don't blame you being fanatical about home security after suffering a break in, but OP slept with windows open, ladders on the ground outside, two dogs that don't bark, and a broken pane in a downstairs window... doesn't seem very worried, fearful or security conscious to me.

Yep, I hear you and don't really have any response..as bunched altogether like that, sounds like he was pretty lax with his security on that night, despite his fears (which are well documented), quite bizarre actually.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I am sure Mangena said that the only double taps could have been the last 3, and after a bit of research I can see what he means because if he is right and Reeva was standing, had the first been a double tap she would have been hit twice round about the same area. This is why special forces use double tap, first to immobilise second to kill so you don't leave an armed terrorist standing ready to shoot again. However rapidly Reeva crumpled to the floor with the hip shot it would not have been quick enough (a double tap is so so quick) for her not to have been hit twice around the hip or a little higher. jmo

Yes and I think it was the pathologist who stated that even the hip injury could have been enough to kill her because of the bullets .
On that note how much weight would be put towards the choice of ammo and that he committed two offences simultaneously .Murder and was using illegal ammunition . I do wonder if the ammunition is enough to prove pre meditation.?

 

[patCee]

No we don't. This was not explained in court.

Thanks, didn't think I seen or heard it mentioned.

 

[G.bng]

Agg please could someone explain, in laymans terms, what this means..what is a double tap?? TIA

I have in a couple of posts later on and there are many videos on YT if you search for "how to shoot a double tap", especially interesting is the explanation around minute one of the video called "SAS Doubletap" where they explain the use of double taps.

Also informative was listening to shots (aghh... I hate guns or anything to do with them!) because I realised how difficult it is to distinguish how many shots, their cadence, etc. so to expect witnesses recently woken up and hearing a very traumatic incident to all remember the same amount of shots and their cadence, e.g. bang-bang- bang-bang, or bangbang-bangbang, or bang-bangbangbang, etc. is the defence reaching for pie in the sky and I would imagine the judge and her assistants will realise this.

 

[TorisMom003]

Link to OP's bail application statement.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210201629/Oscar-Pistorius-Bail-Application-Statement

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I am sure Mangena said that the only double taps could have been the last 3, and after a bit of research I can see what he means because if he is right and Reeva was standing, had the first been a double tap she would have been hit twice round about the same area. This is why special forces use double tap, first to immobilise second to kill so you don't leave an armed terrorist standing ready to shoot again. However rapidly Reeva crumpled to the floor with the hip shot it would not have been quick enough (a double tap is so so quick) for her not to have been hit twice around the hip or a little higher. jmo

Ah yes but don't forget apparently she was nearly bent over double to listen if the phantom intruder was heading towards her.
If she had been bent over like that I doubt that she would have fallen where she ended up
Reeva was 1.7m tall the very highest bullet was 1.04 m from the floor with a downwards trajectory . Who bends over that much to listen at a door ...seriously there are so many stretches of the imagination with op's version of events .

 

[minor4th]

It's 'For Him Magazine', basically a blokes magazine with pictures of women and car talk/lads stuff.

I see. Like GQ kind of? So is this the magazine that Reeva was modeling for?

 

[G.bng]

I'll just elaborate on the double-tap technique a little bit more for clarity.

A double tap is a shooting technique where two well-aimed shots are fired at the same target with very little time in between shots.

If you very very quickly pulled the trigger twice on a gun, the likelihood is that the second shot would rise quite high above the target. This is because the gun naturally rises after a bullet is released.

To enable accuracy you have to aim back at the target after the first shot and squeeze the trigger again. It's an individual skill which varies from person to person, therefore a time guesstimate is quite difficult.

From what I have watched and heard in several videos you "wait", or perhaps better said allow for the gun to rebound back to the same position you shot it in which it strangely does ?

 

[lisasalinger]

And I don't blame you being fanatical about home security after suffering a break in, but OP slept with windows open, ladders on the ground outside, two dogs that don't bark, and a broken pane in a downstairs window... doesn't seem very worried, fearful or security conscious to me.

I found it odd that he stated "there are no burglar bars across my bathroom window" in his bail affidavit because there are no burglar bars across any of the windows that we observed from the photos. It seems like a fancy embellishment to me.