Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[minor4th]

The strewn trophies was just a media rumor. There were no photos in evidence of that. The downstairs lounge area where the trophies were looked to be in order, the only thing they found were blood spatters on the sofa and chair. The Prosecution expert determined that was likely from when Oscar carried her downstairs. The lounge is just below the landing of the stairs.

With that said, if you scan thru all of the screen shots of the scene, particularly the bedroom and the bathroom... it really does read like a fight. I'm extremely intrigued by the bedroom. Nel absolutely will ask him about the damage to the bedroom when he is on the stand. If he doesn't, I will fall out of my chair. That has to be discussed.

In my eyes, it would be an enormous coincidence that the bedroom door has one, possibly two, gun marks in it, banging marks near the door handle and damage down near the locking mechanism... and it's not at all related to the dead woman in the bathroom who is also behind a locked door with bang marks and bullet holes in it.

I would be really surprised if the damage to the bedroom door was a bullet hole. Certainly the ballistics expert would have testified to it, if that was the case.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Baba testified that Mr. Nhlengthwa reported gunshots as well. He was in the house with all of the lights on upstairs.

Stipp got thru first at 3:15:51am.

Then Nhlengthwa tried at 3:16:15am, but couldn't get through.

He did get through at 3:16:36am and spoke to Baba for 44 seconds.

So why did he not testify?? Perhaps the prosecution thought they had done enough. Nel certainly didn't look ruffled about much; a complete opposite of Roux.

 

[minor4th]

AK47 ??? I thought we were talking about OP suspecting it was a burglar or two not a terrorist attack !!!

And if OP shot thinking the intruder/burglar was carrying an AK47, I dunno about you, but if I were OP I wudda sure got the hell outta there fast taking Reeva with me in case he had a bomb with him as well... and on my stumps!

I think that's kind of the point - he didn't feel like he could escape safely or quickly enough (according to his account).

 

[steveml]

The Black Talon ammo has now been superseded by Federal HST, Speer GD and Ranger T-type ammo. These are basically the same concept, but supposedly shoot better (which I presume means more accurate).

This ammo is completely legal, and is often the ammunition of choice of private firearm users carrying weapons for self defense purposes.

These type of hollow-point bullets are used by many Police Forces, it's not a bullet that is bought for a special purpose. If a civilian happened to need stopping by force from the police, this is the sort of bullet that could very likely be in the gun.

I'm not trying to play down the impact of the damage these weapons do, I think we're all educated enough to understand that. The legitimacy of these type of bullets will probably never be reconciled by non gun owners, the same way as gun ownership won't. It's one of those things that may turn our stomachs, but from a SA point of law the ammo used will probably have no bearing on the case.

How OP handled the gun is the issue, not the fact that the gun which was used to kill had bullets in which would kill. That concept applies to any gun.

 

[lisasalinger]

From this landing on the stairs, you can see the trophy case in the background. Appears to be in order.

 

[minor4th]

So why did he not testify?? Perhaps the prosecution thought they had done enough. Nel certainly didn't look ruffled about much; a complete opposite of Roux.

Prosecution is not likely to call witnesses who disprove or undermine their case. I suspect that is why Nel did not call them - their testimony will be more beneficial to the defense and more harmful to the state's case.

 

[minor4th]

The Black Talon ammo has now been superseded by Federal HST, Speer GD and Ranger T-type ammo. These are basically the same concept, but supposedly shoot better (which I presume means more accurate).

This ammo is completely legal, and is often the ammunition of choice of private firearm users carrying weapons for self defense purposes.

These type of hollow-point bullets are used by many Police Forces, it's not a bullet that is bought for a special purpose. If a civilian happened to need stopping by force from the police, this is the sort of bullet that could very likely be in the gun.

I'm not trying to play down the impact of the damage these weapons do, I think we're all educated enough to understand that. The legitimacy of these type of bullets will probably never be reconciled by non gun owners, the same way as gun ownership won't. It's one of those things that may turn our stomachs, but from a SA point of law the ammo used will probably have no bearing on the case.

How OP handled the gun is the issue, not the fact that the gun which was used to kill had bullets in which would kill. That concept applies to any gun.

Yes, I would think that the argument for the defense would be that this was a responsible choice of ammunition for self defense as it is less likely to cause collateral damage to others.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The strewn trophies was just a media rumor. There were no photos in evidence of that. The downstairs lounge area where the trophies were looked to be in order, the only thing they found were blood spatters on the sofa and chair. The Prosecution expert determined that was likely from when Oscar carried her downstairs. The lounge is just below the landing of the stairs.

With that said, if you scan thru all of the screen shots of the scene, particularly the bedroom and the bathroom... it really does read like a fight. I'm extremely intrigued by the bedroom. Nel absolutely will ask him about the damage to the bedroom when he is on the stand. If he doesn't, I will fall out of my chair. That has to be discussed.

In my eyes, it would be an enormous coincidence that the bedroom door has one, possibly two, gun marks in it, banging marks near the door handle and damage down near the locking mechanism... and it's not at all related to the dead woman in the bathroom who is also behind a locked door with bang marks and bullet holes in it.

Do you think that the reason we haven't heard a transcript of the netcare call is because they did indeed tell him to carry her downstairs .
I still can't get over the fact that her dragged her out of the toilet instead of lifting her gently . He is a very fit and strong man despite his disability.
I figure if they didn't he was moving her to cover up the crime scene or dare I say move her ......
Again the damaged door/ bath panel and tiles should have been clarified by his staff.IMO

 

[minor4th]

Maybe it was the neighbors next door with the lights on who were talking loudly before the shots rang out. Interested in hearing their testimony.

 

[steveml]

The strewn trophies was just a media rumor. There were no photos in evidence of that. The downstairs lounge area where the trophies were looked to be in order, the only thing they found were blood spatters on the sofa and chair. The Prosecution expert determined that was likely from when Oscar carried her downstairs. The lounge is just below the landing of the stairs.

With that said, if you scan thru all of the screen shots of the scene, particularly the bedroom and the bathroom... it really does read like a fight. I'm extremely intrigued by the bedroom. Nel absolutely will ask him about the damage to the bedroom when he is on the stand. If he doesn't, I will fall out of my chair. That has to be discussed.

In my eyes, it would be an enormous coincidence that the bedroom door has one, possibly two, gun marks in it, banging marks near the door handle and damage down near the locking mechanism... and it's not at all related to the dead woman in the bathroom who is also behind a locked door with bang marks and bullet holes in it.

Have you had any thoughts on the marks on the far bedroom wall, the duvet and the watch box? I really would have expected them to have come into play.

 

[weeeva]

Sorry i just don't see these mitigating circumstances that some speak of.
In his own words He chose not to wake his girlfriend and escape downstairs, he chose not to stand his ground, he chose not to put on his prosthesis but to go into the dark on his stumps, he chose not to identify who was in the toilet, he chose to fire 4 times instead of 1.
there are no mitigating circumstances.

I have not read anywhere that he actually SAID that he chose not to wake his girlfriend. Making a level headed choice in the circumstances he found himself in would be difficult for anybody, even more so if you are a severely disabled person. I don't know if SA law recognizes mitigating circumstances, but if it does it should apply in this case. Without his prosthetics he is a severely disabled man, which must have an impact on his mental state, and I think it would be wrong to ignore this. Of course I still do not know if he knew who was behind that door.

 

[Gavel Rash]

So why did he not testify?? Perhaps the prosecution thought they had done enough. Nel certainly didn't look ruffled about much; a complete opposite of Roux.

Nel has enough to state his case, he didn't need another 1st class witness who will be useless to the defence because they heard the four shots at 3.14ish. He has proven beyond reasonable doubt with 5 ear witnesses that state a woman screaming that Oscar apparently didn't hear.
The ballistics positioning of the body, the bullet wounds, the line up of those wounds in symphony to the gun shots, is irrefutable. Makes the bat the only credible sound heard then and also Mrs Stipp in court prompted by DT in her affidavit she described the first sounds as 'thuds' the second sounds as 'shots'.

Oscar does though have a problem with his 5 minute Internet connection at 1.56?am 14th. This caused a great deal of angst for Reeva, hence argument erupts. Had she gone downstairs for a snack and come back to find him watching and she found it disgusting as they had just had sex and wasnt she supposed to be the special one in his house that night. She had ids sues with him constantly bringing up his litany of ex girlfriends etc and she felt used and confronted him?

Moller & Nel have made a clear point that messages can be found to be deleted and that the information can be traced. They didn't say what they found. They did say that info was deleted from Reevas phone re reply message to her long relationship anger issue message.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think that's kind of the point - he didn't feel like he could escape safely or quickly enough (according to his account).

But yet he could easily in a state of high distress manage to open his locked bedroom door To go downstairs and open the front door quickly I am betting the key will have been in that door or not locked at all
I still think from where he alleges he was stood when he heard the noise right by the side of the bed Reeva was on and awake (as he has testified to ) the safest route out would have been back on to his balcony or right out the door WITH his beloved !! And the bedside panic alarm set off .

 

[lisasalinger]

Have you had any thoughts on the marks on the far bedroom wall, the duvet and the watch box? I really would have expected them to have come into play.

Yes. After Dr. Stipp examined Reeva and stated that she was dead, he and Stander went outside. Oscar then went back upstairs for a few minutes. Nobody knows why (yet).

At this point, his hands would not be washed. He would have blood on them. The small blood spatter on the duvet, bedroom wall and the wall near the light switch could have all been cast off from Oscar.

Interestingly... remember Roux asked the expert if he knew what "cast off" was. I think Oscar was up in that room doing something but I don't know what. Just a guess at this point.

As for the watch case... I think that spatter could have been from when Oscar was carrying Reeva. That is right in the line of him carrying her out the bedroom entrance.

 

[steveml]

Nel has enough to state his case, he didn't need another 1st class witness who will be useless to the defence because they heard the four shots at 3.14ish. He has proven beyond reasonable doubt with 5 ear witnesses that state a woman screaming that Oscar apparently didn't hear.
The ballistics positioning of the body, the bullet wounds, the line up of those wounds in symphony to the gun shots, is irrefutable. Makes the bat the only credible sound heard then and also Mrs Stipp in court prompted by DT in her affidavit she described the first sounds as 'thuds' the second sounds as 'shots'.

Oscar does though have a problem with his 5 minute Internet connection at 1.56?am 14th. This caused a great deal of angst for Reeva, hence argument erupts. Had she gone downstairs for a snack and come back to find him watching and she found it disgusting as they had just had sex and wasnt she supposed to be the special one in his house that night. She had ids sues with him constantly bringing up his litany of ex girlfriends etc and she felt used and confronted him?

Moller & Nel have made a clear point that messages can be found to be deleted and that the information can be traced. They didn't say what they found. They did say that info was deleted from Reevas phone re reply message to her long relationship anger issue message.

I'm afraid unless somebody knows something we don't, nothing has yet been proven to be beyond reasonable doubt, and nothing is yet irrefutable.

Those are two of the few things that we can currently determine as fact.

We've only heard one side of the case yet.

 

[steveml]

Yes. After Dr. Stipp examined Reeva and stated that she was dead, he and Stander went outside. Oscar then went back upstairs for a few minutes. Nobody knows why (yet).

At this point, his hands would not be washed. He would have blood on them. The small blood spatter on the duvet, bedroom wall and the wall near the light switch could have all been cast off from Oscar.

Interestingly... remember Roux asked the expert if he knew what "cast off" was. I think Oscar was up in that room doing something but I don't know what. Just a guess at this point.

As for the watch case... I think that spatter could have been from when Oscar was carrying Reeva. That is right in the line of him carrying her out the bedroom entrance.

Interesting - thanks :thumb:

 

[Gavel Rash]

Interesting too is the calls Osacr made that early morning...yes he called Stander, Netcare, voicemail, Justin, Dad and then Piet. Who was Piet? He is a lawyer. Straight up! Grieving for his wasted girl, you havent even got her blood off your body but dad tells you to ring Piet.....the first thing you do is lawyer up. Yep. Piet Pistorius Criminal Lawyer.


4:01 - Voice call - outgoing - from a number saves as "Deco", revealed to belong to Heinreich Pistorius
4:09 to 4:10 - Voice calls - outgoing - to a number saved as "Piet", lasting between 3 and 11 seconds
4:11 - Voice call - incoming - from Piet, lasting 49s

 

[lisasalinger]

I would be really surprised if the damage to the bedroom door was a bullet hole. Certainly the ballistics expert would have testified to it, if that was the case.

It has an entry and exit point though. I can't imagine what else would cause that other than some type of projectile.

Also, the locking mechanism of that door is on the bottom of the door. Oscar claims the bedroom door was locked. Why is his door smashed in right next to the locking mechanism? That is a big problem for me.

I think that Nel specifically did not explain this evidence, or have his experts explain the evidence, because he wants to catch Oscar up. If he had completely shown his hand, Oscar could have prepped. Oscar is going in to his testimony somewhat blind as to the ultimate State theory at this point. I have to believe this. If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my words

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I have not read anywhere that he actually SAID that he chose not to wake his girlfriend. Making a level headed choice in the circumstances he found himself in would be difficult for anybody, even more so if you are a severely disabled person. I don't know if SA law recognizes mitigating circumstances, but if it does it should apply in this case. Without his prosthetics he is a severely disabled man, which must have an impact on his mental state, and I think it would be wrong to ignore this. Of course I still do not know if he knew who was behind that door.

He didn't need to say that because he knew Reeva was awake so it seems very strange to not have ushered her to safety first or into hiding under the bed even . He was supposed to be right next to her . Whilst he was retrieving the gun he could have told her to phone police .
Ps not trying to be snappy her I am having trouble with my smilies lol

 

[Gavel Rash]

Have you had any thoughts on the marks on the far bedroom wall, the duvet and the watch box? I really would have expected them to have come into play.

They could well have been flicked or cast off as mentioned by Oscar retrieving the phones from the bedroom after opening the door or getting blood on his hands from collecting keys from bloody floor of loo.