Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[steveml]

That is 100% incorrect. There has been much proven beyond all doubt:

• Reeva was killed by OP.
• Killer was not in imminent danger.
• Killer shot four black talon bullets through a closed toilet door.
• Reeva was not armed.
• Reeva was not moving towards killer threatening him.
• Killer holding a 9 mm gun moved towards victim in the toilet stall.

The above facts are the state's prima facie case. The defense now has burden of proof to show why killer was not in violation of SA's murder laws when he shot Reeva 3 times.

We can amicably agree to disagree on this. I trust SA to understand their own laws.

 

[nastasya]

Rudie Visagie was charged with murder under SA law, then acquitted.

Unless the story of a fight etc etc can be proven, I really think this will be at maximum a murder conviction.

The prosecution cut Visagie a break on humanitarian grounds, not legal grounds:

Makhosini Nkosi, spokesperson for the National Prosecuting Authority, confirmed that Visagie would not be prosecuted.

"There's no doubt that Visagie's culpability in the matter can be argued successfully in court, but we believe that justice wouldn't ultimately be served.

"He has been through traumatic circumstances, and his pain would only have been aggravated by his part in her death. We feel he has learned a hard lesson and the courts cannot achieve more than that," he said.

Further, they deemed it reasonable that seeing his daughter's car being driven off at 5 am would lead him to think the car was being stolen.

Hearing the person you were sleeping with 5 minutes earlier go pee and then shooting her through the toilet door is not a reasonable response.

Oh yeah... one more thing....

5 witnesses heard a woman and man screaming/arguing before hearing gun shots. That's evidence OP's entire story is a lie, and he intended to kill RS when he shot through the closed toilet door.

 

[steveml]

Depends on obstructions, a tree, a wall, a fence, etc. let alone direction of the sound waves.

ie. When my neighbour has parties the sound from them carries way further and louder down the street that is on the other side of the house behind his than to mine which is directly beside his. In fact, the fence separating our lots is only about 15-20 ft from my patio door and the side of his house is about 4 ft from it. So basically, the sounds coming out his patio doors when they're open carries as loudly to about two blocks away as to my home right next door.

I know because one night I took a walk to test it because I'd had people from up that street come to me wondering why I wasn't calling police to complain about it..

Yes, but look at where OP's house is in relation to the others. These are not built up areas, there are predominantly straight lines of sight, with not enough reflective boundaries.

I may be wrong, but if I am I guarantee I will change career.

 

[steveml]

The prosecution cut Visagie a break on humanitarian grounds, not legal grounds:

Makhosini Nkosi, spokesperson for the National Prosecuting Authority, confirmed that Visagie would not be prosecuted.

"There's no doubt that Visagie's culpability in the matter can be argued successfully in court, but we believe that justice wouldn't ultimately be served.

"He has been through traumatic circumstances, and his pain would only have been aggravated by his part in her death. We feel he has learned a hard lesson and the courts cannot achieve more than that," he said.

Further, they deemed it reasonable that seeing his daughter's car being driven off at 5 am would lead him to think the car was being stolen.

Hearing the person you were sleeping with 5 minutes earlier go pee and then shooting her through the toilet door is not a reasonable response.

Oh yeah... one more thing....

5 witnesses heard a woman and man screaming/arguing before hearing gun shots. That's evidence OP's entire story is a lie, and he intended to kill RS when he shot through the closed toilet door.

And if the Judge decides that she can't compute the reasons for such mixed testimonies, and lack of persuasive evidence, there is the possibility she may ultimately decide that it was a tragic accident...and still charge OP with murder.

 

[nastasya]

Lol, please don't put words in my mouth. How could I possibly know where he was if I was not there? I'm going with what was in his statement. His statement, I would imagine, is the defences case. A mans life hinges on that statement, do you honestly think they would blatantly add gross untruths on it? That statement was carefully thought out and most sentences and "facts" included for a reason. In any case, we are talking about split seconds here, does it really matter if he was shouting at the alleged intruder from the passage or 1m further, in the bathroom doorway?

Did you actually just ask if I thought the defense would blatantly add gross untruths to their statement?

Of course they would if the killer told them it's what happened in order to avoid being sent to prison for life.

And I did not put words in your mouth. You stated unequivocally that OP was in the hallway between the bedroom and bathroom when he spoke those words. There's zero reason to believe any of his story is true.

 

[Val1]

I am confused because in the image that I first saw here some weeks ago it looked like there were tiles, (perhaps) a square vertical post, and perhaps an air conditioner. The post is most confusing because that would I think go to the balcony. So I am wondering. You folks looked at more than one image to draw your conclusion so I accept that, but I just can't recall seeing an air conditioner under the bathroom window. Does anyone have a photo of that area so that I can fully get this? Finding images of the jeans is impossible outside of WS, kudos!!!

This better?

For the rest of her amazing blog and tons of pics(warning-graphic images):

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

 

[minor4th]

Trouble is It's Oscar who brings it up in his affidavit

"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable".

I don't understand why anyone would take issue with that statement or believe it's a lie. It seems intuitively true.

 

[nastasya]

THANK YOU for bringing that up!!!

Visagie wasn't acquitted. He wasn't prosecuted.

The prosecuting authority took the position that there was NO DOUBT his culpability could be argued successfully in court.

Makhosini Nkosi, spokesperson for the National Prosecuting Authority, confirmed that Visagie would not be prosecuted.

"There's no doubt that Visagie's culpability in the matter can be argued successfully in court, but we believe that justice wouldn't ultimately be served.

"He has been through traumatic circumstances, and his pain would only have been aggravated by his part in her death. We feel he has learned a hard lesson and the courts cannot achieve more than that," he said.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/visagie-can-find-some-peace-at-last-1.219358#.UzNPIMRDt8E

 

[james83]

I don't understand why anyone would take issue with that statement or believe it's a lie. It seems intuitively true.

Yes but the point is he could have put them on, and he also had managed to bring 2 fans from the balcony without them.

 

[steveml]

The only statement lie that I've heard from the trial so far has been Annette Stipp's phantom intruder that walked across the bathroom.

It appears it's not just OP than can believe something is there when it isn't.

Then again, special dispensation for prosecution witnesses perhaps?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Yes because maybe he thought his alibi was lacking and needed a little more time elapse to give Reeva enough time to get into the toilet supposedly unseen or unheard
but IMO it hasn't helped at all because in either case she could not have got out of bed ,walked down the side of the bed totally adjacent to the open doors through the bedroom and then the dressing room round the corner out of sight in the time that it took him to pick up the first fan and turn Back into the bedroom and take the two steps he would likely have needed because his tiny balcony is only about 4ft deep max.
I seem to be in the minority here but it just couldn't have happened as he stated . The balcony and Reeva were just too close with no glass,blind or curtains he could not have failed to see her get up .
Once she stood up from the bed they were probably only a couple of feet apart despite him being on the balcony .

I totally agree.. A huge problem for him to explain this coincidental getting up and going to the loo along with the blinds and curtains open/closed stuff if he takes the stand .. lol

 

[Viper]

This better?

For the rest of her amazing blog and tons of pics(warning-graphic images):

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Thank you so much!!!

I won't ask anymore questions about it, sorry! :smile:

 

[Gryffindor]

Could they be holes made by the air rifle? Question: Do air rifles make much noise? Even though I have been shot by one I did not hear, or was not aware, that it made enough noise to make me wonder what was happening.

That air rifle in the bedroom was confirmed fitted with a SILENCER thus would make pretty much no sound!! stranger and stranger said Alice . . .

 

[steveml]

In his story, Why would he hear a noise bend down to get his gun and at no point inform his girlfriend what he had heard and what he was about to do, that just wouldn't happen, he showed zero concern for Reeva's safety, he went off into dark totally exposed knowing if he was hurt/killed Reeva was left totally exposed with not a clue what was going on, it's yet another giant suspension of belief.

I agree with you James regarding the actions. This is something which OP is going to have to explain, and convince.

If I'm not convinced during defense I'll be one of the first to jump ship.

 

[nastasya]

I disagree. I think it sounds reasonable when fearful that an intruder is about to shoot, and he's on his stumps and his bedroom door is locked, preventing quick and certain escape for him and Reeva.

It doesn't matter if he can run on his stumps better than he can walk - it matters whether he was afraid he and Reeva could safely and quickly escape his bedroom (whether on stumps or legs or whatever).

And BTW where is everyone getting this information about how mobile and quick Oscar is on his stumps?

The killer's athletic ability, with and without wearing his legs, is well documented. OP on stumps carrying a fully loaded 9 mm gun is far from vulnerable.

"Pistorius went down in school folklore when, during a rugby match, a player from the opposite team tackled him. ‘His legs came off in the boy’s arms,’ said Shroeder. ‘But he carried on running over the line, I think the other kid still has nightmares.’"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2193556/Oscar-Pistorius-story--impossible.html

 

[steveml]

That air rifle in the bedroom was confirmed fitted with a SILENCER thus would make pretty much no sound!! stranger and stranger said Alice . . .

Ah yes, thanks, I seem to remember it had a silencer fitted. :thumb:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I totally agree.. A huge problem for him to explain this coincidental getting up and going to the loo along with the blinds and curtains open/closed stuff if he takes the stand .. lol

I am glad you have noticed as well . I was beginning to think I was posting on some sort of parallel universe thread lol
Seriously the fans might as well have been in the same room because the doors and curtains were open .
If he stated that they were both in the bedroom and he just went to move a fan nobody could believe that she could get up and walk all that way
Down to the bathroom without him noticing yet effectively he was . I have been saying this all day because it was such a revelation to me today when I saw the size of the balcony on some plans that juror13 had posted .it may as well be called a ledge at 4ft wide . With doors open it was just an extension of the bedroom. .
Oh and don't forget he could hear an intruder allegedly shuffling 9m away behind solid walls

 

[Feynman]

Why would you accept her husband's "correction" that the woman's voice Van der Merwe heard as being Pistorius" voice? How would he know who's voice it was? No matter what he said, it doesn't mean "we know" who's voice it was just because he said it.

Merwe said her husband had spoken with Oscar before.

 

[minor4th]

Yes but the point is he could have put them on, and he also had managed to bring 2 fans from the balcony without them.

And??

 

[Feynman]

What makes you think that OP "knew" Reeva was awake??? I just checked his statement and he didn't mention that at all unless it was mentioned in testimony somewhere?.

He didn't say anything about this in his affidavit, but interestingly in his trial plea he says this: "During the early hours of the morning, I brought two fans in from the balcony. I had shortly before spoken to Reeva, who was in bed beside me."