Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Carol70]

The prosecution cut Visagie a break on humanitarian grounds, not legal grounds:

Makhosini Nkosi, spokesperson for the National Prosecuting Authority, confirmed that Visagie would not be prosecuted.

"There's no doubt that Visagie's culpability in the matter can be argued successfully in court, but we believe that justice wouldn't ultimately be served.

"He has been through traumatic circumstances, and his pain would only have been aggravated by his part in her death. We feel he has learned a hard lesson and the courts cannot achieve more than that," he said.

Further, they deemed it reasonable that seeing his daughter's car being driven off at 5 am would lead him to think the car was being stolen.

Hearing the person you were sleeping with 5 minutes earlier go pee and then shooting her through the toilet door is not a reasonable response.

Oh yeah... one more thing....

5 witnesses heard a woman and man screaming/arguing before hearing gun shots. That's evidence OP's entire story is a lie, and he intended to kill RS when he shot through the closed toilet door.

Yes because it was all a tragic accident. It's absolutely WAS NOT possible that Visagie and his daughter had a screaming match at 5am in the morning because she wanted to go visit a boyfriend and he didn't want her driving around the farmlands at that time of the morning and then in a rage put his gun through his bedroom window and fired shots at her car as she attempted to leave the property. It's inconceivable that a father would shoot dead his own daughter. Parents simply don't kill their own children in fits of rage. Just like it appears it's absolutely NOT possible that OP killed Reeva accidentally. Umm ok.

And the witness timelines and testimony is currently quite shoddy, what was heard at just past 3 by burger and others?. Shots..then what was heard at 3.17 which the state claim was a shot to Reevas head that killed her? Give or take that's 15 minutes of 4 very drawn out gunshots since only 4 shots were fired according to expert testimony.

I think we can agree to disagree and have nothing really further to debate as we are just going to go around in circles. Have a lovely evening.

 

[Trooper]

This malarkey about being in deep terror, and all that stuff, is moonshine and a ploy to play into fears specific to Pretoria, where as it happens the crime of burglary is declining exponentially.. ( oddly, the crime of intimate partner femicide is increasing exponentially.. one every eight hours. ) .. how does Oscar sleep , and for 4 months at a stretch in his house in Italy??

Because the murder occurred in Pretoria, the concept is floated that he was entitled to blam away, because of his high risk perceptions. Not so, says SA Law

Where he would not be granted a permit to have a single solitary gun on his premises or person. . where even a small penknife is considered a weapon. Being a house owner doesn't qualify.. he isn't a citizen of Italy..

He couldn't take his arsenal to Italy with him, and he couldn't replicate it there, either.. He would have to leave it there, if he managed to acquire some.. Otherwise he would run the risk of being sprung in airline security, rubbishing his chances of ever being allowed on an airline again. Anywhere. A terrific handicap for competition and sponsorship. Having a stash of guns in his house in Italy would be an instant deportation and a huge scandal. ( not as big as his current one though, but big enough)

Yet for 4 months of the year, Oscar manages to contain and suppress his fear and terror and bounce off to Italy, as helpless as a baby with nothing between him and an Italian intruder.. they do have em , .. same as any country. yours mine and Oscars.

Forget the 'double tap'... if Oscar is silly and unskilled enough to 'accidentally ' fire off a safety-switched-on Glock which he has been informed is 'one up' under the table in a restaurant on a busy Friday lunch hour, he hasn't achieved double tap status and hopefully never will. And , he fired that Glock when it was aimed down.. at the floor. At Kevin Larena's toes.

The next time we hear of Oscar pulling the trigger, he fires it so close to the ear of the driver of the car which is travelling at speed, that the blood vessels in his ear bleed.

This is not a double tap shooter.. I'll go along with Oscar being an accurate shooter though. he hit his target 3 times out of 4 , without seeing that target, or how many targets he was shooting at.. thanks to Viper, I now take on board that his 4th shot would have been as accurate, had the target not been propelled over and down , as physics demands.. ( I originally had him pegged at 75% accuracy, but logarithmically, he was spang on for each bullet. )

 

[Gryffindor]

My gut feeling alongside the fabulous, detailed photos from Lisa is that the bedroom door scenario is crucial. Totally. Plus, the marks on the inside edge of the door where the locking mechanism is looks like they've been made with a cylindrical baseball bat . . . . . (Beside airgun rifle in bedroom)

That is, someone wedging it there, trying to frantically/hurriedly close it to prevent someone entering our to get them out. I believe this force/pressure may also have caused the massive crack down the door.

I believe this happened prior to the bathroom. Rifle also causing damage to downstairs window. Wait, was there ammo left for the air rifle, if it was fired off a few times first. Perhaps that's why he then had to use his parabellum for the bathroom shots??

Sorry for long post. Thoughts and ponderings . . .

 

[DebinGA]

He didn't say anything about this in his affidavit, but interestingly in his trial plea he claimes he said this: "During the early hours of the morning, I brought two fans in from the balcony. I had shortly before spoken to Reeva, who was in bed beside me."

This reminds me of the testimony that she'd eaten around 1 a.m. How does that fit with his tale? Did she eat alone? Leave the bedroom for the kitchen without him knowing? etc.

 

[james83]

And??

Point was clear, he said he was vulnerable without his prosthesis so I questioned why he didnt put them on.

 

[nastasya]

Merwe said her husband has spoken with Oscar before.

So we have Van der Merwe hearing arguing beginning immediately after the killer's iphone disconnected from the internet to the time she heard gunshots, and her husband identifying one of the voices as Oscar Pistorius.

And we have four other witnesses who heard a woman screaming and gunshots coinciding with Van der Merwe's testimony.

The victim was shot 3 times behind a locked toilet door that had also been bashed to pieces with a cricket bat.

And the killer's entire defense depends on the judge believing he replicated the exact sounds of a woman screaming in terror and gunshots immediately after he shot 4 gun times at the victim, hitting her three times.

I've noticed a pattern in these cases, like the Jodi Arias case, where everybody is mistaken except the killer.

Strange, huh?

 

[Really?]

I agree with you James regarding the actions. This is something which OP is going to have to explain, and convince.

If I'm not convinced during defense I'll be one of the first to jump ship.

'BBM....................:floorlaugh:

:wagon:

 

[minor4th]

Point was clear, he said he was vulnerable without his prosthesis so I questioned why he didnt put them on.

Because he thought he was about to get shot so he reached for his gun and not his legs

 

[steveml]

:rumor:

I heard that a big deal was made regarding the plakkies (sandals) because OP knew that Reeva never walked around without them on. If they were at the side of the bed, this may be used as one of the things in OP's defense to determine that she would have been in bed at the time.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

This reminds me of the testimony that she'd eaten around 1 a.m. How does that fit with his tale? Did she eat alone? Leave the bedroom for the kitchen without him knowing? etc.

Not been explained . I don't think there are many people that believe that they had gone to bed for a quiet night and there has been no mention of other sort of bedroom activity so it is just yet another mystery how and when she ate ,maybe she ate in her sleep or managed to unlock and open the locked door that was so difficult to do without waking OP up and then managed to eat and get back into bed all unnoticed

 

[dianebowen]

My gut feeling alongside the fabulous, detailed photos from Lisa is that the bedroom door scenario is crucial. Totally. Plus, the marks on the inside edge of the door where the locking mechanism is looks like they've been made with a cylindrical baseball bat . . . . . (Beside airgun rifle in bedroom)

That is, someone wedging it there, trying to frantically/hurriedly close it to prevent someone entering our to get them out. I believe this force/pressure may also have caused the massive crack down the door.

I believe this happened prior to the bathroom. Rifle also causing damage to downstairs window. Wait, was there ammo left for the air rifle, if it was fired off a few times first. Perhaps that's why he then had to use his parabellum for the bathroom shots??

Sorry for long post. Thoughts and ponderings . . .

Hopefully, hopefully, Nel will win the bet that Oscar WILL testify, and can ask him about all this in the defense phase.

 

[MeeBee]

I find it really sad that someone with her ability chose to be an FHM model. She had so much going for her. Why go into glamour model shots. Anyway, I will end it here. She is dead and was quite obviously had a lovely personality and this perhaps is not the time and place to speak of her like this. Unfortunately this all stems from OP "giving permission" (not quite) but she obviously felt she needed to seek his approval of what she could wear.

I can appreciate what you're saying. I don't really want to judge someone based on what they choose to wear or project to the world. But something you said earlier bothered me.

How is it up to OP to decide how Reeva should want to be perceived to the world? Reeva was seen many times in that dress and in all manner of provocative things, presumably, without seeking his "permission" first. She was a grown woman who made these decisions. I fail to see how even the way Reeva dressed was the fault of OP. But maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying (this was in an earlier post).

 

[Trooper]

I find it very significant, that the ear witnesses that were women, Mrs Van der Mewre, Mrs Burger and Mrs Stipp have never, at any time since that night resiled from their conclusion that they heard a woman screaming.

Mrs Van Der's husband offered the opinion to Mrs VD ( he didn't testify) that it was Oscar, and Mrs VD testified that she disagreed , on that night, with her husband and his perception.

Yet Roux and poor hopeless Kenny Oldwage and Oscar, maintain it was Oscars screaming..and , apparently, a test has been done by Oscar and Roux.. doesn't sound as if it is going to succeed.. one witness has already testified that the Oscar screaming test was ludicrous and had no similarity to the sounds she heard that night.


I believe that these women, who know how and why women scream, and how they sound, and what levels and pitch a woman can achieve were never, ever in any doubt , and nothing Roux or Poor Kenny could do changed that. And Judge Masipa will be fully cognizant of the mechanics of women screaming and men screaming.. fully and completely.

And so far, both Roux and Poor Kenny have had more yellow cards dished out to them from the bench for misleading and misrepresenting x-examination when its a woman testifying than for the men testifying.. Poor Kenny in particular, he couldn't get it right, and he got the longest wigging so far during any witness testimony from the judge.

 

[james83]

Because he thought he was about to get shot so he reached for his gun and not his legs

Just makes no sense to me, if he thought he was going to get shot surely he stands at the bedroom doorway and waits gun drawn while getting Reeva to call security, no one would walk towards danger if they believed an armed intruder was in there house.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

:rumor:

I heard that a big deal was made regarding the plakkies (sandals) because OP knew that Reeva never walked around without them on. If they were at the side of the bed, this may be used as one of the things in OP's defense to determine that she would have been in bed at the time.

This is something I haven't quite got my head around yet .
Her possessions were at the left hand side of the bed (sandals and bag ) but OP stated he had slept on the left because of his shoulder injury .
He would normally sleep on the right side .
There has got to be some reason for this . Maybe linked to wear the gun or its holster was .
Can't quite put my finger on it but hope to have an epiphany soon .
I bet Nel has everything figured out . He has not seemed anything other than calm generally even with the cross examination of Batman !!
Which I had to go and lie down after watching that lol

 

[DebinGA]

Hopefully, hopefully, Nel will win the bet that Oscar WILL testify, and can ask him about all this in the defense phase.

I wonder if OP knows his attorney (Webber) answered, "We have no choice" to the question of whether he'll testify. Not exactly a confidence builder imo.

 

[Trooper]

Really.. Nel's first question to Oscar on the stand, apart from asking him if his bucket handy, is ' Just go thru every sound you heard that night, after 10pm when you say you both went to sleep'

 

[weeeva]

Sorry, but my OH has two very severely disabled adult 40 year old sons who need care 24/7 so I can tell you OP is not a very severely disabled person nor a severely disabled man, and in the disability world I volunteer in as an independent advocate he would not be present and would be incensed if it was ever suggested he needed my services. Further, if you watch the video "The fastest man on no legs" you will see that even without prosthetics he was running around like his brother and did every sport imaginable some even just on his stumps. jmo

Sorry but OP is in my opinion very disabled without his prosthetics. He is a very fit man but without his prosthetics I believe what I have read about him feeling vulnerable at night in bed in his stumps. The fasted man in no legs ran with blades on, not on his stumps. I too have worked with disabled people and have witnessed how frightened they can become in certain situations. Until it is proved otherwise I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he feels very vulnerable without his prosthetics at night in bed.

 

[DebinGA]

Just makes no sense to me, if he thought he was going to get shot surely he stands at the bedroom doorway and waits gun drawn while getting Reeva to call security, no one would walk towards danger if they believed an armed intruder was in there house.

Not only did OP "walk toward danger" he sportingly gave the armed bad guy/s his location by yelling, "Get out my house!"

 

[MeeBee]

Speaking of OP giving warning, iirc his friend Darren testified that OP's anger-fueled shot out the sunroof came without warning. Darren, who I assume was driving, yelled something afterward like, "Are you crazy!?!" and OP only laughed. I think OP's former gf, who was in the backseat, has repeated the same tale.

I think Darren may have embellished a little. Sam said they were all laughing afterwards, not just oscar.