Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[lisasalinger]

I can't quote your red comments, but to address a couple - yes, we can say for sure that Oscar did call security and an ambulance almost immediately after he got the door open.

It's really not possible that the messages are going to show that Reeva was distressed that night or that they were having a big fight. We have indeed seen all of the data for when Reeva's and Oscar's phones were used that night - when messages were sent, when voice calls were made and received and when internet was accessed. There was no activity from the phones during the time period of the shooting.
We're left with whether or not a woman was screaming before 3:17, which presupposes that it was the gunshots heard at 3:17 with no explanation for the earlier gunshots heard by Dr and Mrs Stipp. In my mind, it has been well enough shown that the gunshots happened at 3-3:10, then the neighbors heard Oscar screaming, yelling, crying, and at 3:17 the sounds heard was the cricket bat breaking the door.

I know everyone keeps coming up with speculative ideas about how the earlier sounds were not the gunshots - but that's completely ignoring the evidence that the Stipps heard the gunshots before the screaming. I do not think it is reasonable to believe that the gunshots heard at 3:10 were anything other than gunshots.

BBM

We are aware of call/text/GPRS times, but not aware yet of what the content reveals. Admittedly in court, they only read a very select portion of items thus far. There is a lot on there that we still haven't heard.

Just because there wasn't activity at 2:50am or some time immediately before the shooting doesn't mean there wasn't something going on. There could very well be something on there from hours earlier that is a big red flag. We just don't know yet.

My point is, we can't say for sure there is nothing there.

As for gunshots - if the Stipps were so completely sure they heard gunshots at 3am (which I agree is a possibility) then they have the ability to identify gunshots again 15+ minutes later... along with all of the others in the neighborhood.

I understand that Stipp entertained Roux's suggestion that they could have been something else, but he quickly countered back that he really believes they were shots. And then to have others in the neighborhood back that up, it just seems illogical to me to throw it out completely without hearing the State's theory on what those noises are. Just because it hasn't been revealed yet, doesn't mean they don't have a theory.

 

[Cherwell]

So after the last set of bangs the screaming apparently did stop. But all noises did not stop. After that crying was heard that VDM thought was a woman because she thought it was a woman screaming, after which her husband informed her that it was Oscar Pistorius. Now, this is not speculation or misrepresentation. The husband had to have been correct because either way, Reeva was already dead. It had to have, indeed, been Oscar.

The crying, yes; but it does not follow that the earlier screaming wasn't from Reeva.

 

[minor4th]

So after the last set of bangs the screaming apparently did stop. But all noises did not stop. After that crying was heard that VDM thought was a woman because she thought it was a woman screaming, after which her husband informed her that it was Oscar Pistorius. Now, this is not speculation or misrepresentation. The husband had to have been correct because either way, Reeva was already dead. It had to have, indeed, been Oscar.

Correct which proves that Oscar's distressed cries can in fact be mistaken for a woman's.

 

[minor4th]

BBM

We are aware of call/text/GPRS times, but not aware yet of what the content reveals. Admittedly in court, they only read a very select portion of items thus far. There is a lot on there that we still haven't heard.

Just because there wasn't activity at 2:50am or some time immediately before the shooting doesn't mean there wasn't something going on. There could very well be something on there from hours earlier that is a big red flag. We just don't know yet.

My point is, we can't say for sure there is nothing there.

As for gunshots - if the Stipps were so completely sure they heard gunshots at 3am (which I agree is a possibility) then they have the ability to identify gunshots again 15+ minutes later... along with all of the others in the neighborhood.

I understand that Stipp entertained Roux's suggestion that they could have been something else, but he quickly countered back that he really believes they were shots. And then to have others in the neighborhood back that up, it just seems illogical to me to throw it out completely without hearing the State's theory on what those noises are. Just because it hasn't been revealed yet, doesn't mean they don't have a theory.

I am VERY comfortable with my conclusion that there is nothing there because if there it would be presented in the state's case in chief. That is their basis for charging premeditation - they will not and cannot hold back primary evidence that proves their case just to present it during cross examination.

 

[minor4th]

The crying, yes; but it does not follow that the earlier screaming wasn't from Reeva.

But it does follow that if one person can mistake Oscar's distressed cries for those of a woman, then people could mistake Oscar's distressed screams for those of a woman.

Besides, Merwe said she heard a woman (Oscar) "crying loudly" - that is very ambiguous and I don't think it's necessarily true that she meant crying as in weeping. I believe she meant crying out - like yelling or screaming.

 

[Viper]

Correct which proves that Oscar's distressed cries can in fact be mistaken for a woman's.

Hmm...re-reading the Stipps' evidence again and it's very damaging to the defense. The screams they heard lasted for nearly 20 minutes, almost without interruption. I find it hard to believe Pistorius would've been making such a racket for such a long period of time if he'd just discovered the body of Steenkamp in the toilet.

 

[james83]

So after the last set of bangs the screaming apparently did stop. But all noises did not stop. After that crying was heard that VDM thought was a woman because she thought it was a woman screaming, after which her husband informed her that it was Oscar Pistorius. Now, this is not speculation or misrepresentation. The husband had to have been correct because either way, Reeva was already dead. It had to have, indeed, been Oscar.

Vdm at no point said screaming, she said crying.

 

[Cherwell]

We are aware of call/text/GPRS times, but not aware yet of what the content reveals. Admittedly in court, they only read a very select portion of items thus far. There is a lot on there that we still haven't heard.

Just because there wasn't activity at 2:50am or some time immediately before the shooting doesn't mean there wasn't something going on. There could very well be something on there from hours earlier that is a big red flag. We just don't know yet.

My point is, we can't say for sure there is nothing there.

Agreed. We have to keep in mind that evidence is laid before the judge, and the details are not necessarily all produced in court as in jury trials.

 

[nastasya]

Everyone may be getting bedroom door wrong. The bedroom door had been smashed open from the outside prior to the murder, so it was no longer locked. There is no way OP was locked inside the bedroom! :smile:

I used to have the same type of doors in my master bedroom. The doors are held in place by sliding bolts into the floor. At least one door has to be bolted into the floor for the lock near the door handle to do anything. Otherwise you just push the doors and they swing open.

 

[james83]

But it does follow that if one person can mistake Oscar's distressed cries for those of a woman, then people could mistake Oscar's distressed screams for those of a woman.

Besides, Merwe said she heard a woman (Oscar) "crying loudly" - that is very ambiguous and I don't think it's necessarily true that she meant crying as in weeping. I believe she meant crying out - like yelling or screaming.

I disagree, mistaking a man/woman crying is totally different from mistaken a man/woman screaming,no comparison.

 

[minor4th]

BBM

We are aware of call/text/GPRS times, but not aware yet of what the content reveals. Admittedly in court, they only read a very select portion of items thus far. There is a lot on there that we still haven't heard.

Just because there wasn't activity at 2:50am or some time immediately before the shooting doesn't mean there wasn't something going on. There could very well be something on there from hours earlier that is a big red flag. We just don't know yet.

My point is, we can't say for sure there is nothing there.

As for gunshots - if the Stipps were so completely sure they heard gunshots at 3am (which I agree is a possibility) then they have the ability to identify gunshots again 15+ minutes later... along with all of the others in the neighborhood.

I understand that Stipp entertained Roux's suggestion that they could have been something else, but he quickly countered back that he really believes they were shots. And then to have others in the neighborhood back that up, it just seems illogical to me to throw it out completely without hearing the State's theory on what those noises are. Just because it hasn't been revealed yet, doesn't mean they don't have a theory.

If the state has a theory of what the earlier gunshots were, if not gunshots, they are obliged to disclose that theory and make it part of their case. Nel has not disclosed any theory or made any kind of suggestion that the two sets of "gunshots" were anything other than the gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

It is just not logical or reasonable to hold out for the state to put forth an alternate theory that is suddenly going to explain everything and make it clear that Oscar's statements are false. It's not going to happen - one has to be willing to accept the possibility that the state has little proof of their claims and that they won't be able to clearly show you that Oscar intentional killed Reeva.

All of these doubts that people are experiencing, wondering where is the smoking gun we're waiting for - that doubt exists because the state's evidence is not compelling enough and you want more. That, my friends, is reasonable doubt.

 

[Cherwell]

But it does follow that if one person can mistake Oscar's distressed cries for those of a woman, then people could mistake Oscar's distressed screams for those of a woman.

Besides, Merwe said she heard a woman (Oscar) "crying loudly" - that is very ambiguous and I don't think it's necessarily true that she meant crying as in weeping. I believe she meant crying out - like yelling or screaming.

Vdm at no point said screaming, she said crying.

It's difficult to be sure as IIRC she gave evidence through an interpreter.

For myself, I would understand crying to be sobbing and wailing. Shouting and yelling is different, as is wordless screaming.

 

[lisasalinger]

I am VERY comfortable with my conclusion that there is nothing there because if there it would be presented in the state's case in chief. That is their basis for charging premeditation - they will not and cannot hold back primary evidence that proves their case just to present it during cross examination.

They haven't technically held it back, it's all entered in to evidence. But, I respect and accept your conclusion right now. We'll see what happens. If nothing comes out, then you will have earned your "I told you so".. If something relevant and juicy is uncovered - then I get first dibs

 

[MeeBee]

The crying, yes; but it does not follow that the earlier screaming wasn't from Reeva.

Yes, but I, just responding to those who have said the screaming had stopped after the last set of bangs, which points to it having been Reeva screaming and not Oscar because why would he stop screaming after the last shot? My point was, if it was him screaming and not Reeva, he did stop screaming, but at that point started crying. So it didn't completely stop as some are claiming, hoping that makes sense.

 

[nastasya]

So let's look at the States initial reasoning for filing intentional murder charges as opposed to the lesser offense of culpable homicide:

1. Oscar was on his prosthetics when he fired the shots through the bathroom door

2. Three phones were in the bathroom and they're going to show that Reeva was in some kind of distress and evidence if a big fight leading up to the shooting

3. Oscar was watching when he should have been watching his girlfriend do yoga

4. A bunch of neighbors heard Reeva and Oscar in a loud fight for an hour or so immediately preceding the shooting

5. Oscar never called security or an ambulance (indicating he was trying to cover it up)

Now that we've seen what we've seen which of those justifications still exist? None. Not a single one.

Classic straw man argument. None of those are the reasons prosecution filed charges of intentional murder.

The prosecution has a prima facie case for intentional murder. Dead victim. Admitted shooter. Four shots through door with no other inference than shooter was trying to kill who was behind the door.

There was no threat, imminent or otherwise, to the killer.

The killer now has the burden of proof to show that a) his state of mind was that of a reasonable person in fear for his life, and b) his response to that fear was proportional to the threat he was facing.

The defense must make a case that shooting a woman four times in a bathroom stall because the killer heard her go to pee in the middle of the night was not an unreasonable course of action.

The fact that any ONE witness heard a woman's voice at all blows up OP's story and shows he knew who he was about to kill. The fact that FIVE witnesses all heard a woman's voice followed by gunshots, then silence, supports charge that killer maliciously executed Reeva. Three additional shots after hitting her with the first shot also supports this charge.

 

[james83]

It's difficult to be sure as IIRC she gave evidence through an interpreter.

For myself, I would understand crying to be sobbing and wailing. Shouting and yelling is different from wordless screaming.

If I am imagine someone sobbing there heart out, I can see how someone could find it hard to identify the sex of the person if they cant see them.
Screaming however is a different matter, a mans scream has a roar to it, a female scream is an piercing high sound that a man just cat make.

 

[MeeBee]

Vdm at no point said screaming, she said crying.

Idk, I thought she heard screaming and man's voice in between the bangs or something because she thought a woman was screaming, heard bangs, then heard crying and thought there was an invasion and the man was shot in front of the woman.

But, again, that's not really the point of what I'm saying.

 

[Really?]

Yet genuinely believing it to be an intruder who had come to harm him and his property

That does not fly in SA law.....think about it...what made him believe that?.....surely an intruder could have shimmied in the open balcony......held OP and Reeva at gunpoints whilst his mates ransacked the place. Hearing a noise in the toilet (of all places) when he has a guest in his bed.........and not first checking if said noise was his quest....well.....it does not fly with me either.

:jail:

moo

 

[lisasalinger]

If the state has a theory of what the earlier gunshots were, if not gunshots, they are obliged to disclose that theory and make it part of their case. Nel has not disclosed any theory or made any kind of suggestion that the two sets of "gunshots" were anything other than the gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

It is just not logical or reasonable to hold out for the state to put forth an alternate theory that is suddenly going to explain everything and make it clear that Oscar's statements are false. It's not going to happen - one has to be willing to accept the possibility that the state has little proof of their claims and that they won't be able to clearly show you that Oscar intentional killed Reeva.

All of these doubts that people are experiencing, wondering where is the smoking gun we're waiting for - that doubt exists because the state's evidence is not compelling enough and you want more. That, my friends, is reasonable doubt.

I really do get we're you're coming from. It's a good point about reasonable doubt.

Can only speak for my own thoughts, but I'm not necessarily looking for a smoking gun. I'm just looking for their summation. I think what is throwing me off a bit here is that there were no opening statements... at least not in the sense that we are used to in the US. So right there, we don't have a basis for what each side is trying to build. We just have to figure it out as we go along.

 

[minor4th]

Idk, I thought she heard screaming and man's voice in between the bangs or something because she thought a woman was screaming, heard bangs, then heard crying and thought there was an invasion and the man was shot in front of the woman.

But, again, that's not really the point of what I'm saying.

Nope, that was Burger - but that wasn't your point.

I believe your point was that we have one witness who without question heard Oscar and believed it to be a woman because she heard it after all the gunshots/cricket bat/bangs when everyone agrees Reeva was dead and could not scream (or cry) (or cry out)(or cry out loudly)