Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[steveml]

what would be the purpose of changing it if NOT to counter the prosecution indictment?

no purpose whatsoever, is what. And that applies to each change individually and collectively

none
zero
zip

Of course there's a purpose.

If you remember something you feel you missed, is it better to leave it and wait for the defense to rip you apart for it, or make sure it's correct?

I know which I'd do.

 

[Cherwell]

I think Nel has tailored his case far too much on the presumption of an argument/fight/chase through the house, leading to the shooting. That was all he could suggest as a motive.

That's because it is far and away the most likely "motive". It's a very common scenario.

A damaged bedroom door, broken window and one or two other things are damage that could have happened at any time.
Nel has probably backed off from examining the bedroom door too much, as he's left with virtually nothing on the argument front

These things are possible explanations for the earlier bangs. For various reasons I don't believe that the later bangs were caused by the cricket bat hitting the toilet door.

 

[Interested Bystander]

What if....lets say....OP never retrieved any fans.

Never closed the drapes/doors/blinds.

He woke suddenly to the sound of something in the bathroom that sounded as if the window was being opened.

He forgot in his waking haze that Reeva was staying over......we know the rest.

Anyway.....would this be more believable..?

So many stories...embellishments and changes to what happened according to OP. First they went to sleep at 10PM...then, oh yeah thats it.....he had just spoken to her before retrieving the fan.....er.....I meant the 2 fans.

I put it to us that the "loud talking" heard one hour prior to the "incident" was a lovers quarrel that escalated to murder.

That is something that is very possible. I posted a while back alluding to this and I think one of our posters thought Stipp had said all the lights were on upstairs. If that was the case it knocks a huge hole in OPs testimony. I must run through Stipps testimony and cross examination again.

 

[Trooper]

That's because it is far and away the most likely "motive". It's a very common scenario.


These things are possible explanations for the earlier bangs. For various reasons I don't believe that the later bangs were caused by the cricket bat hitting the toilet door.

BBM for emphasis.. It is THE most common form of death in an intimate partner scenario , in South Africa..


why is it so difficult to believe that Oscar Pistorius is not as common as dirt, statistically?? its not a long stretch.. Statisticaly, Reeva was in more danger from Oscar, than Oscar was from a burglar..

 

[Trooper]

and statistically.. that's how it was and is. . .for sure..


she WAS in more danger from Oscar , than he was from a burglar.....

 

[steveml]

my head banging was about Reeva, in the dark, getting up and unlocking that bedroom door and carefully locking it behind her, going downstairs to the kitchen and the fridge for that salad and cheese.. no one keeps food on a hot night UPstairs even with an Air con, and his Air con was broken.

so.. IF she had the food at the time the pathologist estimates.. she had to go down stairs and get it. ( cos , according to Oscar, she is asleep up stairs at 10pm and not a sound for the rest of her very short life after that )

then come back up unlock the door, go into the bedroom, and lock it behind her.


but its a hell of a lot easier to believe that door was not locked, never locked, and whatever locks there may once have been on the bedroom door, they were well and truly inoperative for some time before Feb 14th

I'd be tempted to put the 'IF' in 3D with flashing lights, as once you remove the food time guesstimate, the rest of the theory falls apart.

The speculation of 2-6 hours seems to be the figure that appears most often, and the ones that don't agree seem to suggest that it's not enough of an exact science to use in this fashion, without harnessing quite a few other factors in which to draw your conclusion.

Those times are also based on having the exact knowledge of the size and type of last meal. In this case we don't even have that information.

 

[Cherwell]

That is something that is very possible. I posted a while back alluding to this and I think one of our posters thought Stipp had said all the lights were on upstairs. If that was the case it knocks a huge hole in OPs testimony. I must run through Stipps testimony and cross examination again.

No, I think that was the house next door to OP. IMBW, but I don't think OP's bedroom windows would be visible from the Stipp house.

 

[steveml]

Interestingly enough, this is a state prosecution case that has declined to use close neighbours or first person on the scene as witnesses.

Read into that what you will.

 

[Trooper]

the first people on the scene.. John and Clarice Standar. with Pieter Baba being beaten by a nose to the front door..

followed by Dr Stipp.


it is highly likely and in my view probably definitely that John and Clarice Standar are both too tainted for the Prosecution. They may be even too tainted for the defence. Clarice in particular. .. she actually told VanRensburg she had GONE UPSTAIRS on the pretext of getting more absorbent, bigger towels before anyone else went up there.. before Oscar actually zipped upstairs again on his mysterious little trip.

Johan.... .. something definitely wrong there.. Oscar says he called him, told him to call an ambulance. No call is made to one.. Stipp asks him if anyone has called an ambo. Standar says.. er..no.. he delegates Jacob . the other security bloke who was with Pieter..

Stipp asks Johan if the gun ( that blew Reevas head apart ) is secured.. Standar says yes.. but it isn't , clearly. its still on the bathroom floor , loaded and ready to fire off 2 more black talon bullets..

so.. it was never going to be Standar and Clarice who come under the banner of the Prosecution.. IF..and its a BIG if, they appear for the defence, that will make Nel's day.

I think Clarice took the missing phone, too.

 

[Interested Bystander]

No, I think that was the house next door to OP. IMBW, but I don't think OP's bedroom windows would be visible from the Stipp house.

I agree the bedroom windows would not be seen but if the doors were open there would probably be shafts of light hitting the balcony and I think the balcony may have been visible but will have to check the photos.

 

[Viper]

the first people on the scene.. John and Clarice Standar. with Pieter Baba being beaten by a nose to the front door..

followed by Dr Stipp.


it is highly likely and in my view probably definitely that John and Clarice Standar are both too tainted for the Prosecution. They may be even too tainted for the defence. Clarice in particular. .. she actually told VanRensburg she had GONE UPSTAIRS on the pretext of getting more absorbent, bigger towels before anyone else went up there.. before Oscar actually zipped upstairs again on his mysterious little trip.

Johan.... .. something definitely wrong there.. Oscar says he called him, told him to call an ambulance. No call is made to one.. Stipp asks him if anyone has called an ambo. Standar says.. er..no.. he delegates Jacob . the other security bloke who was with Pieter..

Stipp asks Johan if the gun ( that blew Reevas head apart ) is secured.. Standar says yes.. but it isn't , clearly. its still on the bathroom floor , loaded and ready to fire off 2 more black talon bullets..

so.. it was never going to be Standar and Clarice who come under the banner of the Prosecution.. IF..and its a BIG if, they appear for the defence, that will make Nel's day.

I think Clarice took the missing phone, too.

BIB OPs phone was turned off at 4:00, to my knowledge the only "friends" that he had there before he was taken to the garage to be isolated and confined were the two Standers. Yes, one of the Standers took the phone, most likely Clarise.

BTW Isn't it funny how OP placed his "work" phone and Reeva's phone together on the bathroom floor. That was a good rouse and it worked; the police had what they thought was his phone so they did not search the witnesses that had showed up to "help" before clearing them from the crime scene.

 

[Trooper]

BIB OPs phone was turned off at 4:00, to my knowledge the only "friends" that he had there before he was taken to the garage to be isolated and confined were the two Standers. Yes, one of the Standers took the phone, most likely Clarise.

BTW Isn't it funny how OP placed his "work" phone and Reeva's phone together on the bathroom floor. That was a good rouse and it worked; the police had what they thought was his phone so they did not search the witnesses that had showed up to "help" before clearing them from the crime scene.

I got my money on Clarice slipping that phone into her pocket. Peet Van Zyl, his manager got a call from Oscar's phone in that hour after the murder.. he answers it.. it isn't Oscar, its Clarice in a state of high panic.. she's using Oscars phone to do the ringaround..

If Johan and CLarice do get called by the defence.. they will have to testify as to what exactly the wording used by Oscar was when he called Johan's number..

because it didn't include calling the police. that's certain.. the only person who did that, was Dr Stipp.

and it most likely didn't describe by a very long country mile what Oscar was looking at when he made that call,,( and what Oscar was looking at while dialling Standar was what Stipp described and the pathologist and the Coroner (autopsy) .. it didn't do enough to provoke Standar into calling an ambo.. again.. it was Stipp who directed Baba to do that..

 

[Trooper]

BTW Isn't it funny how OP placed his "work" phone and Reeva's phone together on the bathroom floor. That was a good rouse and it worked; the police had what they thought was his phone so they did not search the witnesses that had showed up to "help" before clearing them from the crime scene.

edited by me for brevity..


ha... neatly placed apart.. one just the cover, though..


clarices' work??

on the balance of probabilities.... yes.

 

[Viper]

edited by me for brevity..


ha... neatly placed apart.. one just the cover, though..


clarices' work??

on the balance of probabilities.... yes.

Indeed! :smile:

 

[Viper]

Regarding the bashed in, barged in, bedroom doors. They are wooden doors, they were barged through when they were in the locked position. Wood breaks and tears under that kind of force. So it is funny to me that OP included in his affidavit that one of the reasons that he felt scared when he entered the bathroom was that the bedroom doors were locked. Once a wooden door is broken that way it is no longer a secure door, even if locked it can very easily be opened, without a key, just by pulling on it. OP and Company have cojones! I'll give them that!

 

[Duchy]

Everyone may be getting bedroom door wrong. The bedroom door had been smashed open from the outside prior to the murder, so it was no longer locked. There is no way OP was locked inside the bedroom! :smile:

So Reeva could have locked him out of the bedroom and he then smashed it in so she ran and locked herself in the loo?

 

[steveml]

OT

I can't read the name Clarice anymore without thinking of Clarice Starling.

 

[Viper]

So Reeva could have locked him out of the bedroom and he then smashed it in so she ran and locked herself in the loo?

YES! :loveyou:

 

[Interested Bystander]

No, I think that was the house next door to OP. IMBW, but I don't think OP's bedroom windows would be visible from the Stipp house.

I have had a look at the photos and I think it highly unlikely that Stipp could have seen the balcony as it sits within the outer walls of the house (ie rather than sticking out). Its position would be on the right side of the house behind the bathroom and toilet. He may have seen some lighting on the greenery but I really don't think he would be checking details like that.

 

[Trooper]

so far. and without exception, Roux's theory and I presume this is the defence theory in total, re prosecution witnesses in regard to the ear witnesses and the one ear and eye witness ( dr Stipp) .. Oscar's defence is they all were mistaken. All. Each one , individually and collectively.. they all made a collective error, and individual errors in addition.


But there is no evidence given as to how or why these witnesses are to be collectively and individually mistaken..

I genuinely thought Roux would come up with empirical evidence that nailed this down.. something along the lines of.. Mrs VD Mewre.. we have here statutory declarations from the Pretoria General Hospital that you have been a patient of that institution for many a long year suffering with delusions, and tintinittus..


or.. Mrs Burger.. 'According to the evidence I now submit, Milady, these are the signed and sealed documents relating to Mrs Burgers long running case against a medical practitioner in regard to a faulty cochlear implant. .'...

and so on. you get my drift..

something OUTSIDE and EMPIRICAL than the unsupported claim of 'mistake'..