Trial Discussion Thread #15

[minor4th]

Sure, for you anything :blowkiss:

Shots 3:17 ish... lasting one presumes a few seconds... and so a little over a minute then until OP made a phone call at 3:19.

There was a LOT of stuff that OP MUST have done after the shots... stuff that would take several minutes... there is simply no time to do all that... even if you discount OP's version... just stuff the State narrative includes... such as putting on his prostheses BEFORE getting the bat and bashing down the door, prising the door open, lifting/dragging Reeva to bathroom etc.

Simple as that

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just catching up with today's comments. I came across something to throw into the pot which maybe has not yet become apparent. I traced back the dates of the problem phone calls and it appears there were three in quick succession. If the fourth was around this time maybe this relationship was nearing its conclusion. I think Reeva tried very hard to avoid scenes and to keep things on an even keel as I am sure she had strong feelings for OP. He no doubt had strong feelings for her too but they turned into behaviour that can only be described as emotionally abusive.

Here are the dates of the three calls about which we have heard but for some reason I didn't quite catch the timing and, therefore, their importance.

19th Jan
Included the fact that she smoked pot when she was away at Tropika and he queries what else she did.

27th Jan
OP's obsessive behaviour at Darren's engagement party where he made her leave early and accused her of flirting with her close friend's (I think) husband .


8th Feb only 5 days before the shooting!
OP criticises her in public and she says she certainly didn't feel like a lady that night. I think this must have been at an official function.

Three major rows about his unreasonable behaviour in less than 3 weeks. If we get to hear the fourth was also around this time I think it becomes extremely likely that RS was "calling the whole thing off" after yet another argument on the evening/night of 13th February 2013. I am sure on the 13th Feb she had no idea what was about to erupt and lead to her murder.

MOO

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thank You. I'm sorry, I did mix up the story on the bullets in the safe I can see. If those bullets in the safe are his dad's should it be fair for OP to take the wrap for them I don't think that's fair.

I do have my doubt that they were his dad's bullets. From what has been published Oscar was estranged from his father. I think, more likely, he had purchased them ready to use with the gun he had on order that used this calibre bullet. I am sure we will never know unless Nel has evidence that OP ordered them himself.

 

[steveml]

For what reason would any if these witnesses lie, they have no reason whatever to do so. They heard a young woman screaming for her life, a young woman shot to death and they should be commended for coming forward to tell the court what they heard.

RS may have been literally silenced regarding the events that led to her violent death but through the witnesses who heard arguing , heard her scream out in terror, her version is now being told and it flies in the face of OP's version. Also his version of a loving relationship is being shown up as a big fat lie in RS's own words. Her messages to OP as read out in court reveal a jealous, controlling and verbally abusive character which had despite the many soppy mostly one liners, had on a number of occasions raised it's ugly head !

I don't think people are suggesting witnesses have lied, that's perhaps the wrong word and would suggest some kind of conspiracy (noooo, not going down that road) it's more a case of questioning reliability of recollection. The nature of the speed at which media moves today makes it very difficult for someone to provide a statement free from any outside influence, unless that statement's made very early before any press release.

Mrs Stipp herself would not admit that memory recollection can be difficult at times, even when Roux asked her...and ironically this was just after she said she couldn't remember holding the curtain back. If she'd simply agreed she'd have gone up in credibility with me. I find it hard to put my total faith in a witness statement, when the witness will not accept that they could be mistaken, even after it's been shown that they clearly were.

As it happens, I've not dismissed her statement, just made a 'handle with caution' note.

The messages don't reveal anything unusual to me. Now, if there was a single solitary threat, either within the huge amount of messages, heard by a single member of the public, or discussed by Reeva to somebody else, I'd be in agreement quicker than a quick thing.

 

[Val1]

BIB. Hmm My eyes don't see all of that! But it does look like he bumps into things sometimes with his lower right leg; probably the coffee tables, happens to me all of the time. It is really good that you found that image though, it would be cool if someone could put side by side with one from the night of the murder to demonstrate the stark contrast.

Also, OP talked about the prosthetics being made out of some kind of metal; it was in a video conversation when he and Sam were on a beach holiday.

Metal rods in his cosmetic prosthetics would be pretty common, whereas his "blades" are constructed from carbon fibre which although about as strong as metal per se, essentially allows for more flexibility/bounce.

 

[steveml]

Thank You. I'm sorry, I did mix up the story on the bullets in the safe I can see. If those bullets in the safe are his dad's should it be fair for OP to take the wrap for them I don't think that's fair.

Hey that's no problem. It's so easy to do. I've done it more times than enough.

I'm not entirely sure on the SA law regarding this. I would guess that as they're on his property, unless he's got some paperwork that gives him authority he will be charged.

 

[steveml]

Wasn't there blood on the outside top of the box of watches as well as on the inside? If anyone knows for certain...

I can't remember tbh. Although we don't know if the lid was initially up or down.

 

[james83]

I want to know if the SAME key is used to unlock bathroom and bedroom?

Can bathroom door be locked from outside and inside?

Did he have extra keys?

Why did R take her phone to bathroom at 3 am? Did she accidentally drop on floor when escaping to bathroom - and that's why no texts or calls for help?

Did R throw the jeans out window- so if she ended up dead and missing then that might alert someone that something was ary? Are they even hers? Or did OP throw them out so she couldn't leave?

Since neighbors heard a woman screaming - overlapping mans lower pitched voice - between approx 3-3:17 am --- I have to think that's when OP was breaking down door so he could see her and shoot...

There is a photo with they key in the toilet door with at least 1 other key attached to it.

 

[Rumpole]

The firearms charges are a very minor sideshow distraction. Clearly only included as a (not very) cunning ploy by the State to introduce "character" evidence (past bad acts) that would normally not be permissible as evidence. They are NOT even past bad acts.. they are at this stage just ALLEGED acts... OP has pleaded not guilty.
I hope the Judge deals with them swiftly (up front). Whether guilty or not and then puts them aside when considering her verdict on the Murder charge. With somewhat dubious witness testimony, and a "he said she said" case... I would hope that the Judge would give the charges little consideration, but at worse perhaps "Guilty" and a fine imposed? After which I do not think she will be considering those charges when deliberating on the Main Event.

 

[steveml]

I do have my doubt that they were his dad's bullets. From what has been published Oscar was estranged from his father. I think, more likely, he had purchased them ready to use with the gun he had on order that used this calibre bullet. I am sure we will never know unless Nel has evidence that OP ordered them himself.

That's possible as he did have a .38 special on order. Henke is also a big gun collector, so it's hard to tell.
The only mitigating factor that may suggest they were not his, may be the fact that he kept them in a locked safe.
This didn't look like the same place where he kept his other ammo for the range. I can't see him getting off with this one.

 

[steveml]

The firearms charges are a very minor sideshow distraction. Clearly only included as a (not very) cunning ploy by the State to introduce "character" evidence (past bad acts) that would normally not be permissible as evidence. They are NOT even past bad acts.. they are at this stage just ALLEGED acts... OP has pleaded not guilty.
I hope the Judge deals with them swiftly (up front). Whether guilty or not and then puts them aside when considering her verdict on the Murder charge. With somewhat dubious witness testimony, and a "he said she said" case... I would hope the the Judge would give the charges little consideration, but at worse perhaps "Guilty" and a fine imposed? After which I do not think she will be considering those charges when deliberating on the Main Event.

I agree, and was surprised it took such a chunk of time from the murder case.
I'm not sure I'd be too happy about the way that was handled if I were Reeva's family.

 

[Interested Bystander]

That's possible as he did have a .38 special on order. Henke is also a big gun collector, so it's hard to tell.
The only mitigating factor that may suggest they were not his, may be the fact that he kept them in a locked safe.
This didn't look like the same place where he kept his other ammo for the range. I can't see him getting off with this one.

Yes, possibly, OR that he knew the ammo was illegally held and needed to be kept out of sight.:dunno:

 

[james83]

But hypothetically - assume that OP really is guilty and his story is a fabrication constructed to account for evidence he thought might come out through ear witnesses and such. Just take that as a given for the sake of trying to put yourself in the prosecution's shoes.

How do you prove it and where do you attack? The things you've mentioned have already been undermined with considerable doubt. So what would it take for Nel now to clearly show that Oscar's version is false in some major aspect that would indicate he was making up the whole story to cover a crime

I still personally believe there are major loss of time issue's that Oscar has to explain whoever's version is true.

 

[kittychi]

And what I see is those on the firmly guilty side have many different theories about what happened, theories that don't even support the state's case. They themselves are confident in their theories but this is certainly a problem for me and has created even more doubt. If a clear picture of the state's case hasn't come through and a clear picture of what happened that night has not emerged that is a problem. At this point, it should be clearer what the state wants to say. That to me shows that state's case is not as strong as I initially thought it would be. So many unanswered questions yet so many are so convicted they have it all figured out.

BBM I can't speak for others, but I have several ideas, or theories if you will. I am not convinced at all that any are accurate. The reason i come to WS is to see what people like yourself are saying, even though I am in the Guilty Camp.

I have read several theories that support the ballistics, forensics and witness statements. Unless there is video of the event, what exactly happened and what led up to Reeva's death will not ever be known IMO.

I also want to mention that maybe intent and premeditation are getting mixed up here at times and these two terms should be distinguished. IMO, he intended to kill and that invalidates his sworn affidavit. However, I do not see yet that the state has proven premeditation the way I define it.

I would like to know what "premeditated" means in a SA court. So many other things are different from my comparison to USA courts, so maybe the def of premeditation is different too.

 

[james83]

Thank You. I'm sorry, I did mix up the story on the bullets in the safe I can see. If those bullets in the safe are his dad's should it be fair for OP to take the wrap for them I don't think that's fair.

The law does not accept ignorance as an excuse.

 

[MeeBee]

To my mind, there's really only one thing the State has to convince the judge is true:
Screams first
Gunshots second.

This is what it'll come down to, I think. Was Reeva screaming and was the second set of bangs heard the gun being shot. That's really it.

 

[james83]

Sure, for you anything :blowkiss:

Shots 3:17 ish... lasting one presumes a few seconds... and so a little over a minute then until OP made a phone call at 3:19.

There was a LOT of stuff that OP MUST have done after the shots... stuff that would take several minutes... there is simply no time to do all that... even if you discount OP's version... just stuff the State narrative includes... such as putting on his prostheses, getting the bat and bashing down the door, prising the door open, lifting/dragging Reeva to bathroom etc.

But other than Oscar's story, what is to say Oscar didn't fire the shots, then call stander before doing anything else?.

 

[MeeBee]

Has it actually been confirmed the key was on the floor? I had just automatically assumed that when Reeva locked herself in the toilet cubicle (for whatever reason .. either to take a pee, or in order to try and get away from an impending threat) that the key would already be in the lock on the inside (surely that would just be there all the time?) and all she would've needed to have done is just turn the key? So, if that was the case .. then why would she have needed to take the key out, why would it be on the floor or somewhere on Reeva, and why would OP have needed to have reached right in to fetch it (in order to unlock the door from the outside) .. surely all he would've had to do is break enough of the door to put his hand around to the key in the other side of the lock, then either turn it in situ or take it out and turn the lock from the outside (which is where it did actually end up as the photographic evidence shows).

I think OP said it was on the floor in one of his statements and that's why he had to bust more room out of the panel.

 

[steveml]

Just catching up with today's comments. I came across something to throw into the pot which maybe has not yet become apparent. I traced back the dates of the problem phone calls and it appears there were three in quick succession. If the fourth was around this time maybe this relationship was nearing its conclusion. I think Reeva tried very hard to avoid scenes and to keep things on an even keel as I am sure she had strong feelings for OP. He no doubt had strong feelings for her too but they turned into behaviour that can only be described as emotionally abusive.

Here are the dates of the three calls about which we have heard but for some reason I didn't quite catch the timing and, therefore, their importance.

19th Jan
Included the fact that she smoked pot when she was away at Tropika and he queries what else she did.

27th Jan
OP's obsessive behaviour at Darren's engagement party where he made her leave early and accused her of flirting with her close friend's (I think) husband .


8th Feb only 5 days before the shooting!
OP criticises her in public and she says she certainly didn't feel like a lady that night. I think this must have been at an official function.

Three major rows about his unreasonable behaviour in less than 3 weeks. If we get to hear the fourth was also around this time I think it becomes extremely likely that RS was "calling the whole thing off" after yet another argument on the evening/night of 13th February 2013. I am sure on the 13th Feb she had no idea what was about to erupt and lead to her murder.

MOO

They don't come across as major rows to me. For a major row to occur you would expect some kind of continued disagreement.
At least a few messages backwards and forwards - but there's hardly any evidence to show that these comments went any further.

 

[Rumpole]

This is what it'll come down to, I think. Was Reeva screaming and was the second set of bangs heard the gun being shot. That's really it.

I think the case will "come down to" the State NOT being able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that OP did not genuinely believe there was an intruder, leaving a situation where the Judge has to consider OP's actions in the context of OP firing at an intruder.
Nel has barely, if at all, addressed the issues surrounding OP firing at what he thought was an intruder, and so Nel has not yet made much of a case at all. I would suggest that as things stand OP should be acquitted, but from what I read, under the SA system, Nel still has a chance to make some sort of a case during cross examination of defense witnesses, even though the State has rested it's case. He does though (IMO) need to put down his cup of tea, and get up on his hind legs and start making some sort of a case.
:scared: