Trial Discussion Thread #15

[curiousjo]

There are many signs of an abusive relationship. The most telling sign is fear of your partner. If you feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your partner—constantly watching what you say and do in order to avoid a blow-up—chances are your relationship is unhealthy and abusive. Other signs that you may be in an abusive relationship include a partner who belittles you or tries to control you, and feelings of self-loathing, helplessness, and desperation.

Domestic abuse often escalates from threats and verbal abuse to violence. And while physical injury may be the most obvious danger, the emotional and psychological consequences of domestic abuse are also severe. Emotionally abusive relationships can destroy your self-worth, lead to anxiety and depression, and make you feel helpless and alone. No one should have to endure this kind of pain—and your first step to breaking free is recognizing that your situation is abusive. Once you acknowledge the reality of the abusive situation, then you can get the help you need.

he Full Cycle of Domestic Violence: An Example
A man abuses his partner. After he hits her, he experiences self-directed guilt. He says, "I'm sorry for hurting you." What he does not say is, "Because I might get caught." He then rationalizes his behavior by saying that his partner is having an affair with someone. He tells her "If you weren't such a worthless I wouldn't have to hit you." He then acts contrite, reassuring her that he will not hurt her again. He then fantasizes and reflects on past abuse and how he will hurt her again. He plans on telling her to go to the store to get some groceries. What he withholds from her is that she has a certain amount of time to do the shopping. When she is held up in traffic and is a few minutes late, he feels completely justified in assaulting her because "you're having an affair with the store clerk." He has just set her up.
Source: Mid-Valley Women's Crisis Service

---http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm

This is a layman's article that is easy to read, and is exactly the same in the medical books. Anyone in the healthcare field is very familiar with Cycle of Domestic Violence and signs of abuse - as we are required by law to address it with our patient, and to report it to police authorities, as appropriate!

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have a case because she corrected it.

When someone makes a statement under oath, and swears to its truth subject to penalties of perjury - you cannot write it off as a simple mistake or carelessness.

So does Nel have a case because OP altered his statements in several places?

 

[minor4th]

Find me a scholarly article that suggests that "emotional abuse" such as Oscar pouting about not getting attention is linked in any way to domestic homicide.

 

[minor4th]

So does Nel have a case because OP altered his statements in several places?

Um ... because he changed "the fan" to "two fans"? Busted!!!

 

[Gavel Rash]

I have also been thinking about what witnesses heard and why they heard. Oscars bedroom balcony faces same direction as bathroom, towards Stipps house....witness Stipp heard bangs and screams very distinctly. Witness Merwe heard argument voices hour prior to any bangs...she is opposite the house on street to the left of Oscars house from front view. direction wise the verandahs doors etc that face her property are closest to verandah area that looks like it lines up with area Reeva's yoga mat was found in the informal lounge area. this balcony area faces the Merwes place and also if we go downstairs...the kitchen area also is on same side of house. Merwe could hear the argument between them so it figures that they were either downstairs or on this side of house, where I think it started and where Oscar first grabbed air rifle from? garage? kitchen bench? fridge? he sees to guns in every room so....

 

[G.bng]

I am sure one side or other is going to be VERY disappointed.

My hope for this trial is that the Judge will "get it"... I fear Juries often don't despite jury instructions and the Judge's briefing on applicable law. I have high hopes for a system with Judges deciding.

She will (I hope) be viewing all that is presented in the context of "Presumed innocent" and so (I hope) will be seeing things as I do

Viewed from the perspective of "Presumed Guilty" and so denying facts that do not fit with "guilty", and speculating with no proof should be right out!!

Oh yeah, the judge will "get it" aright. That is if by "get it" you mean Masipa will follow the law, line by line, letter by letter. And the law is clear and she will have to reason every single finding she makes citing all the evidence the why's and wherefore's and the laws that support each finding as well as reason her final decision. Yes she may have some leniency for OP because of his disability, but imo that won't result in an acquittal, at best culpable homicide. Otherwise imagine how many spouses could decide to knock off their other halves claiming they heard a sound in the night... Or company owners their business rivals... No, SA just ain't the US so you may have to just get over it!

 

[G.bng]

Well she admitted that she voluntarily signed it after reading it - she wasn't under duress or forced to sign it, knowing it contains false statements about what she saw.

That's deliberate, that's intentional and that's deceptive.

And you can believe whatever you want, but the fact that a crucial ear/eye witness is willing to swear to a false statement impeaches their testimony. Judges take this oath thing pretty seriously.

I thought she said she thought it was correct at the time but it was after going thoroughly through it and what had happened that night she realised it was not what she remembered rather what Mr remembered. That is not a lie.

 

[minor4th]

Announcement: I'm done talking about Mrs. Stipp and domestic homicide and abuse. I've said everything I can possibly say in many different ways, so I'll not argue the point any longer - nor will I change my opinion that Mrs Stipp lied or that the text messages we've seen are not indicative of a risk for intimate partner homicide

 

[Viper]

Methinks you may find it useful to forget US law when interpreting this case as even in the UK it is likely charges would have been bought against OP, while in the the US it would likely have been a basic self defence with not even an arrest.

In SA the constitution arising after apartheid not surprisingly enshrined a strict concept of "right to life" holding the life of even a thief to be more precious than property, (nothing remotely similar to the US you'll probably say!). From the guide "When Can I fire" published by the "Institute of Security Studies" of South Africa, a few paragraphs explain OP's problem, the asterisked (*) note being imo his best hope for culpable homicide, i.e. that due to his "disability" the judge views him with more leniency. If not, well, what can I say, OP didn't even see a burglar let alone a gun so the judge will be hard pushed to find an immediate threat as there needs to be for OP to make use deadly force. And if OP lied about being variously robbed and threatened, (Nel seems intent on pushing him for details and dates), and considering he lived in a very secure 24/7 patrolled estate, fitted with panic button and the works, and left windows open, ladders below, had dogs that didn't guard, an unprepared broken pane on the ground floor, and, my o my, didn't even have burglar bars fitted to the bathroom window as he so expressly pointed out in his statement for some strange reason considering that he didn't have them fitted to any other windows either, it may be that even his "disability" won't help the judge to see him that favourably! :

Maverick the bogies have bugged out! Awesome post Gbng!!! LOL, facts instead of opinion, soooo refreshing.

The movie Top Gun

 

[Interested Bystander]

Um ... because he changed "the fan" to "two fans"? Busted!!!

Oh dear. I cannot believe you just wrote that. What about bedroom door now unlocked (previously the locked door was an important element for the reason he was terrified), window being slid open (instead of only a sound in the bathroom) and speaking to RS, whereas she was supposedly asleep in his Affidavit + the 2 fans.

 

[minor4th]

Oh dear. I cannot believe you just wrote that. What about bedroom door now unlocked (previously the locked door was an important element for the reason he was terrified), window being slid open (instead of only a sound in the bathroom and speaking to RS, whereas she was supposedly asleep in his Affidavit + the 2 fans.

Ok, I missed the change from bedroom door being locked to unlocked! You sure about this?

I asked earlier if anyone knew which window slides open because I thought that might be something but got no replies. I don't find it inconsistent thought that he originally said he heard a noise in the bathroom and later said he heard a window slide open in the bathroom.

I also dont think it's necessarily inconsistent that he said they went to sleep some time after 10 and later said that he had spoken to Reeva earlier or moments eariler or whatever - although that is something I definitely think he has to explain.

In short, I do not think these discrepancies are big enough that they can't be explained - except for the bedroom door being locked if that is indeed a change in his statements.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Has there been any evidence - or even any rumors - that Oscar has ever acted violently or physically harmed anyone in a jealous rage?

He has threatened to break people's legs in the past and there is a video on You Tube that states he was always getting into fights. It seems he does have violent inclinations. I think jealousy was the reason for the threat to break someone's legs.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Yes he removed the sentence stating 'I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked'

 

[soozieqtips]

Whats OP excuse for not stating anything about a very loud argument that lasted for an hour from 2-3 am? .....

But there was no shouting. Have you forgotten that he was deeply in love and couldn't be happier... AND... he knew that Reeva (who he had just shot dead) felt the same way?? OP wouldn't lie. Well okay, so maybe one fan became two fans. But to be fair, who wouldn't forget that little detail when you've only had five whole days to get your story together about an incident that took place over a few minutes...

And yeah... so he may also have forgotten in that same affidavit to mention that he'd just talked to Reeva before bringing in the fans (the fans which were previously known as just the one fan). But hey, omitting to mention in his affidavit that he had in fact spoken to Reeva shortly before shooting her dead, and that, oh yeah, she wasn't asleep after all... well, that's not a lie. It's just 'remembering' more detail, clarification if you will.

 

[Gavel Rash]

And he also tries to explain away Merwes proximity as It would not be possible for Merwe to hear me in my bedroom from their bedroom.

Hence my point about the arguing not coming from bedroom but from either semi lounge area upstairs near yoga mat or from downstairs same side of house, not side his bedroom is on and carry easily to Merwes house direction.

 

[soozieqtips]

'I felt vulnerable because my bedroom door was locked' I know these are not the exact words Oscar used, but I have a big problem with this sentence.

Firstly his bedroom door was locked by who? by Oscar himself.... with a key that he either left hanging from back of bedroom door, or do we believe he locked bedroom door from inside for safety...and then took key out (if that is one of the other key(s) on this lot)... down to toilet door, where he then placed it on inside of door so that a user may have privacy? So why didn't he just unlock the door and lock burglar in?

So does it figure then he would have taken key from toilet door to let himself out to carry her downstairs? He didn't as we know a key was still in toilet door, then where was the key that opened bedroom door again? He said he went downstairs to open door for Stander so did he use the keys dangling from his bedroom door? And if he did, then why didnt he use same keys to get out of the room away from the danger he percieved himself and Reeva were in? Or did we get any info as to how he opened said bedroom door in order to carry Reeva, as all doors in Oscars house are keyed both sides not with a self locking internal latch.

So his fear of being locked in his bedroom has no substance.

BBM - Much like his affidavit.

 

[Interested Bystander]

3.25 am I the Uk and I have to be up at 6.30 am. Gotta go.

 

[minor4th]

Yes he removed the sentence stating 'I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked'

But did he say in his second statement that it was unlocked?

 

[Huna]

The only risk factor we can identify in Oscar Pistorius is that he has access to guns. That is predictive of exactly NOTHING.

Snipped

Wow. I wouldn't say that means nothing. You've conveniently forgotten his past history involving guns, certain idiotic incidents (esp the one where he went into action on the sound of his washing machine!). Just like in other high profile cases we see a predictor in past actions - jodi arias slashed Travis Alexander's tires before she slashed HIM to death, and George Zimmerman went on to pull out his gun or threaten to use his gun in a domestic with his gf after he shot trayvon Martin.

 

[minor4th]

I did point out that my post was said in jest. Oscar would be delighted to have you in his team as you are doggedly determined like Roux.

I put it to you that I am no more doggedly determined than any other poster here. We all have strong opinions and we all like to share them