Trial Discussion Thread #15

[jay-jay]

Ok, I missed the change from bedroom door being locked to unlocked! You sure about this?

I asked earlier if anyone knew which window slides open because I thought that might be something but got no replies. I don't find it inconsistent thought that he originally said he heard a noise in the bathroom and later said he heard a window slide open in the bathroom.

I didn't answer the question because I wasn't really sure what you were getting at when you asked it .. it had already been established that it was the bathroom window that slides, and that it was the bathroom window that OP stated he heard sliding, and I just assumed that you and everyone else already knew that?

 

[LemonMousse]

A couple of things that leapt out at me from Mrs Stipp's testimony:

Oldwage asking whether the second set of bangs could be fainter than the first. It seems to have finally dawned on them that a cricket bat on a door would be substantially quieter than a gun shot no matter how hard it was hit.

Secondly - the Stipp's heard a male screaming at a high and low pitch just a couple of weeks ago, correctly assuming this was a sound test.

This can ONLY have been OP screaming, either at the house or in a recording. In which case, the defence are hoist by their own petard. The Stipp's actually heard these screams and said they were male. Even when OP tries to sound like a woman, he can't. Nel will highlight this.

 

[jay-jay]

But did he say in his second statement that it was unlocked?

No, in his affidavit it says the bedroom door was locked (well at least that is what it says here http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/ " I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."), so it does seem consistent with what he originally said*.

I do find it odd though, that in that affidavit, in one breath he's saying about feeling trapped because of his limited mobility, but then in the very next breath he is saying about how he then went to the bathroom and fired shots, then backed out of the bathroom, then when realised Reeva wasn't in bed, went back to the bathroom, then he "rushed back to the bedroom" (to scream from the balcony and put his prosthetics on). Now that sounds like one heck of a lot of rushing about, and going back and forth to and from the bathroom, on stumps for a man who claims that he "felt trapped because of his limited mobility" to me.


* edited to say that I've just realised that was his bail affidavit, not his Plea Explanation presented at the beginning of the trial hearing. The second paragraph still stands though.

 

[Trooper]

A couple of things that leapt out at me from Mrs Stipp's testimony:

Oldwage asking whether the second set of bangs could be fainter than the first. It seems to have finally dawned on them that a cricket bat on a door would be substantially quieter than a gun shot no matter how hard it was hit.

Secondly - the Stipp's heard a male screaming at a high and low pitch just a couple of weeks ago, correctly assuming this was a sound test.

This can ONLY have been OP screaming, either at the house or in a recording. In which case, the defence are hoist by their own petard. The Stipp's actually heard these screams and said they were male. Even when OP tries to sound like a woman, he can't. Nel will highlight this.

I bet that test was never going to be presented by Roux.. if you recall, Lemon. Nel also slid this question into Madame Van Der Mewre about a test Roux did... .

she didn't hear a thing!.. obviously, the 'testers' couldn't get up to pitch and DB level. .

Roux definitely stated to a witness.. was it Burger?? Joh Stipp?? that he had indeed done a test, and would prove .. yes prove that Oscar can scream like a woman.. but it seems he cant scream like the woman the witnesses heard..

and that wouldn't be odd if he couldn't.. he never heard a sound outta Reeva after 10pm, he says... if he didn't hear her scream, he cant replicate it. if he did hear her scream, why did he plug 3 more black talon bullets into her?? = murder.

 

[jay-jay]

You sure about that? On one of the posts, I read that the PT entered into evidence all of the text messages, so couldn't they start bringing up messages when OP comes up on the stand?

Yes, but there was one message which was passed directly to Judge Masipa .. so that one has been submitted as evidence, even though we haven't heard what the content of it was (yet).

 

[screecher]

every detail....

Respectfully snipped

"...every detail...."

Yep. The devil in every detail. Detail, IMO, makes or breaks the outcome. Need the details.

Sorry I can not give you a link. I have read it many times. It seems to be accepted.. the State are not making an issue of the fact that OP carried Reeva down stairs, that the car doors were open in preparation for transporting Reeva.

BBM

Read it where? I haven't seen it. Please share.

I don't know, maybe Oscar will write a book. He's going to need some money after he gets out of prison.

How long do you suppose he'll serve for murdering Reeva?

The difference is...... IF OP shot KNOWING Reeva was behind the door.. then I for one would want him found guilty of the highest degree of murder possible in SA.. sentenced to LWOP.

IF he shot thinking it was an intruder, then the crime (if any) is open to debate.. depends on details of law in SA. Personally I do not have a problem with shooting to kill an intruder. If OP genuinely thought he was doing just that, then it becomes a case of mistaken identity.. an accident even, but I imagine some sort of lesser crime such as manslaughter (or the SA equivalent)

BBM

Key words being KNOWING, thinking, thought.

Knowing is realms away from thinking and thought.

IF OP knew he had an intruder in his toilet, who was armed and at the ready to kill, it would mean he could identify said intruder. He didn't KNOW. He never said he knew. That's the reason OP is charged with what he is.

Thinking and thought are words he used. Well, those and the words 'vulnerable' and 'stumps'. Thinking and thought, nor feeling 'vulnerable' and having 'stumps', are not justification for blowing another's brains all over creation.

Ever.

We have very little fact in this case. ....

BBM, snipped for focus

Ah, I disagree. 'we' have more than little fact. In fact, the facts 'we' have are why OP will be convicted of intentional murder.

Fact being, OP armed himself.

Fact being, OP proceeded to an enclosed, locked, very small space.

Fact being, OP fired four rounds through a door upon and into an unseen, an unknown human being who posed no physical threat to him. That would be Reeva Steenkamp.

Fact being, human being, Reeva Steenkamp was murdered in a heinous manner.

Minimize as you may, those are the facts.

No disputing these 'facts'.

So going by Oscar's story
Reeva has been dragged out of the toilet and is laying on the bathroom floor
Oscar's call's Netcare and the call ends at 3:21:11
He runs down to open the front door as he had been told to bring her in.
So he's then going to carry her down to his car?, er no he calls security and cries down the phone at 3:21:33
Then answers the phone to security and says everything is fine at 3:22:21
and finally carries Reeva down at the time Stander and Baba arrive at 3:26
So how come he was told to to take Reeva to hospital at 3.21.11 but doesn't carry her down the stairs till over four and a half minutes later?.

And why in hell's creation does he tell Baba all's ok?

BBM:
I disagree......he didn't know what was behind that door.....what if his dog climbed the ladder...my cat even?....sheeesh. ......trigger happy should have shouted something more than " get out of my house"....oooooo scarey.

Yeah. I guess OP thinks it's justification to fire off four rounds at whatever, whoever, whenever...to murder an unseen, unknown, when the impulse strikes him.

Cripes, it could have been his sister attempting to escape a sociopath boyfriend.

I could have sworn I saw a text where Oscar did say I love you. Going back to see.

Did you find it?

 

[jay-jay]

Ok, there's a big difference in saying it in one statement and not mentioning it in a later statement compared to - saying it's locked in one statement and then saying it's unlocked in another. Trying to find out which it is and don't have the energy to go look at the statements right now.

I would be interested to see that statement too, because in the affidavat I found, he stated it was locked ..

.. OK, I've done a bit of searching and the affidavat's which have been quoted on here are for his bail application. This is the one which was presented in court at the start of the trial itself .. it is his 'Plea Explanation' .. and it mentions nothing whatever about a bedroom door being locked, he has missed that bit out completely (either intentionally or unintentionally, we don't know yet). http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/03/world/document-pistorius-plea-statement/ .. so, it doesn't show that he changed it from the bedroom door being locked to it being unlocked, it just shows that he missed it off completely, for some reason (which sounds a bit suspicious to me).


Edit: apologies .. I've just seen that Gavel Rash posted a link to the Plea Explanation upthread .. I'm just trying to do a catchup here, and haven't yet caught up with later posts!

 

[Val1]

Yes, but there was one message which was passed directly to Judge Masipa .. so that one has been submitted as evidence, even though we haven't heard what the content of it was (yet).

Was that when it was overheard "They can't do that! Yes they can, we can't stop it/them." or something to that effect coming from the defense team?

 

[Trooper]

edited by me.


hell of a precedent to set.. that kind of 'thinking' will get women, and probably quite a few men shot every night with monotonous regularity...slaughter in the suburbs on a grand scale. .

" I thought he/she was in intruder, my lord!"....

 

[steveml]

It's a bit revealing that in the mark batchelor story, OP says he'll break the guy's legs, and calls another fellow adult male a 'boy', when he himself is boyishly good-looking. Other posters have probably commented on this already, that he seems like he has a chip on his shoulder, but maybe the obsession with guns is a Freudian thing.

The state didn't use Mark Batchelor as he's already had numerous allegations against him for assault, so much so that the sport disowned him.

 

[steveml]

Respectfully snipped

"...every detail...."

Yep. The devil in every detail. Detail, IMO, makes or breaks the outcome. Need the details.





BBM

Read it where? I haven't seen it. Please share.




How long do you suppose he'll serve for murdering Reeva?



BBM

Key words being KNOWING, thinking, thought.

Knowing is realms away from thinking and thought.

IF OP knew he had an intruder in his toilet, who was armed and at the ready to kill, it would mean he could identify said intruder. He didn't KNOW. He never said he knew. That's the reason OP is charged with what he is.

Thinking and thought are words he used. Well, those and the words 'vulnerable' and 'stumps'. Thinking and thought, nor feeling 'vulnerable and having 'stumps', are not justification for blowing another's brains all over creation.

Ever.






BBM, snipped for focus

Ah, I disagree. 'we' have more than little fact. In fact, the facts 'we' have are why OP will be convicted of intentional murder.

Fact being, OP armed himself.

Fact being, OP proceeded to an enclosed, locked, very small space.

Fact being, OP fired four rounds through a door upon and into an unseen, an unknown human being who posed no physical threat to him. That would be Reeva Steenkamp.

Fact being, human being, Reeva Steenkamp was murdered in a heinous manner.

Minimize as you may, those are the facts.

No disputing these 'facts'.



And why in hell's creation does he tell Baba all's ok?




Yeah. I guess OP thinks it's justification to fire off four rounds at whatever, whoever, whenever...to murder an unseen, unknown, when the impulse strikes him.

Cripes, it could have been his sister attempting to escape a sociopath boyfriend.



Did you find it?

You simply cannot say OP will be convicted of murder - fact.

 

[Trooper]

the amazing thing about Oscar is he has reached the ripe old age of 27.. and apparently has never heard a strange sound in the night before this particular night.. not in Italy, not in London, not in St Andrews, not in Capetown, .. his 'deep terror' just came out of nowhere..

I mean. .when he shot off guns before in public, it wasn't because he heard a strange sound.. a waiter in Tashas restaurant bringing over a plate of pasta cannot be construed , in this day and age, as a 'strange sound'.. but no. Oscar fires the gun off right near Kevins toes..

driving back from the Vaal river, speeding along, happy as a clam, a little interruption with those pesky police for speeding, a bit of a fumble by the police with his own gun, but then, you know. roaring off again. no one mentioned a 'strange sound' in the car, but Oscar fires it off.. right past Darrins ear.

 

[steveml]

the amazing thing about Oscar is he has reached the ripe old age of 27.. and apparently has never heard a strange sound in the night before this particular night.. not in Italy, not in London, not in St Andrews, not in Capetown, .. his 'deep terror' just came out of nowhere..

I mean. .when he shot off guns before in public, it wasn't because he heard a strange sound.. a waiter in Tashas restaurant bringing over a plate of pasta cannot be construed , in this day and age, as a 'strange sound'.. but no. Oscar fires the gun off right near Kevins toes..

driving back from the Vaal river, speeding along, happy as a clam, a little interruption with those pesky police for speeding, a bit of a fumble by the police with his own gun, but then, you know. roaring off again. no one mentioned a 'strange sound' in the car, but Oscar fires it off.. right past Darrins ear.

You may be forgetting his ex-girlfriend's testimony?

 

[Val1]

The state didn't use Mark Batchelor as he's already had numerous allegations against him for assault, so much so that the sport disowned him.

The State did use ST though, which raises a question from me as to whether it was disclosed to the prosecution and from them to the defense and on into evidence just what is referred to in this article and how much it cost OP to keep that suppressed. - bbm:

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-15-00-reports-of-aggression-haunt-oscar-pistorius-social-relationships

"Join us as we explore the idyllic setting of the Seychelles with Oscar in true Top Billing style," the programme promoted the slot. But the happy romance shown on screen did not last long.

"Oscar has a such a way with women. Strange, she is probably not the only one on his arm," Taylor told Rapport, after Pistorius first appeared in public with Steenkamp. The paper headlined the article with the suggestion that Pistorius was running a relay race with women.

The paper said Taylor had initially said she would reveal "everything" Pistorius had "put her through", but later formally retracted everything she had said and asked not to be contacted again.

 

[jay-jay]

hell of a precedent to set.. that kind of 'thinking' will get women, and probably quite a few men shot every night with monotonous regularity...slaughter in the suburbs on a grand scale. .

" I thought he/she was in intruder, my lord!"....

Yes, that's exactly what I've been thinking .. and am only thankful we do not have legal gun ownership in the UK (and hopefully never will).

 

[Trooper]

You may be forgetting his ex-girlfriend's testimony?

not at all. did he have 'deep terror' at that sound??


no. so THIS sound he heard on THAT night, feb 14 was a sound of a whole other caliber.. never heard before..


it couldn't be the same sound, noooo..

 

[Trooper]

You may be forgetting his ex-girlfriend's testimony?

perhaps you are forgetting his 'deep terror' stuff??


since his entire justification relies on this very point, it would be difficult to ignore it.

 

[Trooper]

Yes, that's exactly what I've been thinking .. and am only thankful we do not have legal gun ownership in the UK (and hopefully never will).

its almost like a free backstage pass..


'wot?? you fort it was an intruder??'' yes milord'.. then go your merry way, and carry on'..

 

[Trooper]

what Roux has to get Oscar to do. or do it in Oscars place should he not take the stand. ( a very bad move in my opinion) ..

is translate and transfer the exact level of terror that Oscar says overwhelmed him at that particular point in time, and maintain it for the time estimated to grab the gun , run shouting thru the passage.. . aim, and fire four times..

to the judge. Oscar has to make the subjective, objective.. he has to share the 'feeling'. And make it believable.

 

[LemonMousse]

According to the formal charge document it says:

5) The accused said to witnesses on the scene that he thought she was an intruder. Even then, the accused shot with the direct intention to kill a person. An error in persona will not affect the intention to kill a human being.

Their italics, not mine.

So, really, the issue of pre-meditation is not just about whether he knew it was Reeva or not (and I think he did) but whether he actually intended to kill someone.

You don't shoot four times without either intending to kill or very seriously wound. This death was not accidental or unintended.

He IS guilty of pre-meditation and deserves a life sentence. Nothing about this case suggests culpable homicide. Nothing.