Trial Discussion Thread #15

[DebinGA]

If people think that a ruse of crying may get leniency from the judge or assessors, look at this interview with criminologist who says Pistorius is crying for himself and his lost opportunities, not for actually for Steenkamp.

This is not about guilt or innocence, it's just an good analysis from criminologist Liza Grobler about Oscar Pistorius courtroom crying and some general context about the meaning of crying in those incarcerated.

http://www.news24.com/Multimedia/Vi...-for-himself-not-Reeva-criminologist-20140328

Spot on imo to explain his court crying ... "He's looking at a lost future"

 

[Interested Bystander]

That's one of the advantages that this trial has by being handled by a judge.
Many actions which could be perceived to influence a jury or attract public sympathy will not be given a second thought by Judge Masipa.

Yep, I do agree. What about the assessors, though? The female assessor I think has been a judge at some stage? If what we have read is to be believed they do get a say in what happens. They don't merely advise the judge on technicalities.

 

[Lyra500]

I didn't compare her to Jodi Arias. Seriously.

But if she has nothing to hide or no agenda then she has absolutely no reason to be defensive. If I was being cross examined and I felt confident in my testimony and I was telling the truth, I would never get defensive. When one person gets all hot and the other remains calm, it makes that other person seem like the irrational one making mountains out of molehills. If you get defensive back, it's going to make people wonder why.

It will be interesting to see how defensive or not OP is (if and when he takes the stand). If he is defensive, I trust those who have been somewhat uncharitable about Mrs Stipp will judge and interpret his defensiveness in the same way. Otherwise that would seem rather unfair.

 

[jay-jay]

He also said he thought the 'intruder or intruders' had entered the bathroom. After he murdered the first 'intruder' did he go to look for any other ones? In his heightened state of 'fear and terror' did it occur to him to check elsewhere? It did not.

Good point, I'd not thought of that .. how very odd (not).

I think his affidavit is 70% lies, 20% exaggeration, and 10% truth, the truth being that he did kill someone, he did use a cricket bat at some point, and he did make calls on his phone. I am looking forward to Nel grilling him on each and every single point of his affidavit.

That's what I've always found is that lies become more believable if interwoven with the truth.

 

[BlueShoe]

Oh, that's also very relevant, thank you. I'll add it in if I may?

Actually I was highlghting the most obvious details, I have quite a few more language/linguistic changes that I wanted to add but will try to do that in the timing implausibility post.

Certainly you may! Thanks for doing this.

 

[LemonMousse]

According to that article, premeditation does not really exist as a charge but more as an aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing.

Did OP intend to kill when he shot the door? Reeva or anyone else?

I think he clearly did.

Did he intend to kill because it was his life or the "intruders"?

He obviously can't support that based on what we've heard so far, so no.

I think Roux et al are fighting more for a minimal sentence than acquittal - I doubt even think they think that's possible.

 

[DebinGA]

That's one of the advantages that this trial has by being handled by a judge.
Many actions which could be perceived to influence a jury or attract public sympathy will not be given a second thought by Judge Masipa.

I'm guessing Roux will emphasize OP's feeling of vulnerability when on his stumps, but how? Have him remove the legs and move on his stumps in front of m'lady? Show a video of same? Mention he's only 5'2" without them? How would OP react to such a public humiliation?

 

[Trooper]

That's one of the advantages that this trial has by being handled by a judge.
Many actions which could be perceived to influence a jury or attract public sympathy will not be given a second thought by Judge Masipa.

every trial in South Africa is handled by a judge.....it doesn't have a jury system.
its neither an advantage or a disadvantage... it just is..

judge Masipa hasn't been a judge under a jury system. neither have her assessors..

 

[Val1]

It will be interesting to see how defensive or not OP is (if and when he takes the stand). If he is defensive, I trust those who have been somewhat uncharitable about Mrs Stipp will judge and interpret his defensiveness in the same way. Otherwise that would seem rather unfair.

I'm betting he'll be giving Nel this look, unless he remembers to cower, cover his ears and start rocking... it's another one of those bigger pics that i don't know how to turn into a thumbprint, sorry.

http://drum.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Oscar-Pistorius24march-1024x705.jpg

 

[sorrell skye]

The media has interchanged the word "premeditated" for the actual words in the indictment: "unlawfully and intentionally".

http://www.scribd.com/doc/161348107/Oscar-Pistorius-indictment

Nowhere in the indictment does the word 'premeditation' occur. Although premeditation can occur in a split-second, the word simply does not exist in the charging document.

The indictment also states: An error in persona will not affect the intention to kill a human being. IOW - OP's claim that he thought Reeva was an intruder will not affect his unlawful intention to kill a human being.

 

[steveml]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...lothes-are-key-evidence-pistorius-case-n39071

Another prosecution spokesman, Nathi Mncube, told 'Dateline' that what Steenkamp wore will be central to the government's case when the trial opens Monday.
'There is a piece of evidence around the clothes that could suggest what happened there,' he said. 'To disclose it now would be to disclose a lot of our thinking around the case before the time.'


Does anyone have any clue as to what this could be?

 

[jay-jay]

Another interesting article - Was Oscar Pistorius The Boyfriend From Hell?

http://m.timeslive.co.za/local/?articleId=11392409

OK, just something on there from one of the messages (which I've seen before, but it's just prompted me to make this particular point with regard to the 90 loving/10% abuse thing). She says in one of those messages "you have picked on me incessantly since you got back from Cape Town" <<-- now here, she is referring to things which appeared to be happening over a number of days, him 'picking on her incessantly since he got back from Cape Town'. That has to be factored in when people are discussing how many times they argued, and they cannot just simply take the 4 text message conversations in isolation. The messages are just a pointer to what was going on in the relationship from day to day in real life, and just that one sentence of hers indicates that he was picking on her, and quite nastily so (her word to describe it "nasty") for days.

These 4 text message conversations really are massively significant .. if you read them properly and thoroughly, and understand all the things they are relating to in their real life situation.

 

[LemonMousse]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...lothes-are-key-evidence-pistorius-case-n39071

Another prosecution spokesman, Nathi Mncube, told 'Dateline' that what Steenkamp wore will be central to the government's case when the trial opens Monday.
'There is a piece of evidence around the clothes that could suggest what happened there,' he said. 'To disclose it now would be to disclose a lot of our thinking around the case before the time.'


Does anyone have any clue as to what this could be?

Underwear, I'm betting.

 

[Cherwell]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...lothes-are-key-evidence-pistorius-case-n39071

Another prosecution spokesman, Nathi Mncube, told 'Dateline' that what Steenkamp wore will be central to the government's case when the trial opens Monday.
'There is a piece of evidence around the clothes that could suggest what happened there,' he said. 'To disclose it now would be to disclose a lot of our thinking around the case before the time.'


Does anyone have any clue as to what this could be?

Might it have been the bullet hole through the shorts that proved she was fully dressed when shot?

 

[Trooper]

Underwear, I'm betting.

being found dead at 3.30am in the same clothes she was wearing at 4pm when she first got to the house.. she left with a laundry basket and came back about 5.30.. still in the same gear..


same clothes...??all day?? in a Pretoria summer??


be a first.

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...lothes-are-key-evidence-pistorius-case-n39071

Another prosecution spokesman, Nathi Mncube, told 'Dateline' that what Steenkamp wore will be central to the government's case when the trial opens Monday.
'There is a piece of evidence around the clothes that could suggest what happened there,' he said. 'To disclose it now would be to disclose a lot of our thinking around the case before the time.'


Does anyone have any clue as to what this could be?

Another quote at that link from another state spokesman:

"We believe that Reeva was probably running away and she locked herself in the bathroom," Medupe Simasiku, spokesman for the national prosecution service, told NBC's "Dateline."
"It cannot be explained as of now," he said Steenkamp's attire, "until such time the accused can actually take up a stand and say, 'She decided to put on clothes to go to the bathroom' or 'She decided to say, "I'm gonna sleep in clothes. I'm not gonna put my nighties on."'"

RS wasn't in her nighties imo, because she never went to bed.

 

[steveml]

Yep, I do agree. What about the assessors, though? The female assessor I think has been a judge at some stage? If what we have read is to be believed they do get a say in what happens. They don't merely advise the judge on technicalities.

I'm not too clear on this myself to be honest. I'm sort of accepting that Judge Masipa has the final say, but some media sites also mentioned that there a majority assessor decision can override the judge.

The latter comment could possible be more to do with the wording of the assessors role, rather than how it actually happens in practice.

I've heard very little about the male assessor's previous experience. Bit of a mystery man.

 

[LemonMousse]

If she had sleep clothes with her, then going to bed in her shorts and t shirt makes no sense.

She wasn't wearing underwear when she was shot - and I'm pretty sure she would have been earlier. She wasn't small breasted enough to go out without a bra. So she undressed and dressed again at some point.

If she'd had a shower, why put dirty clothes back on to go to sleep in?

I think she'd been undressed and hurriedly grabbed the first clothes at hand when it all kicked off.

 

[Viper]

I really think you're going to be disappointed if you're expecting all these major sensations to come out in cross. :no:

And you were saying..

:floorlaugh:

 

[Trooper]

the assessors are members of the bar, officers of the court, specialists in the assessor role.. its the equivalent of Barrister..


don't know what it is the equivalent in the USA. in Scotland it would Procurator level.

in Sweden it would be the level of a justice department invigilator.