Trial Discussion Thread #15

[Viper]

I think the state will be sorely dissapointed if the crime is downgraded to a lesser charge of culpable homicide.
OP could even get a non-custodial sentence, as Judge Masipa can use her discretion regarding sentencing.

Has everyone reviewed the images at this site:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

The most disturbing image is the toilet bowl full of Reeva's blood. This woman died a horrific and violent death. OP does not deserve a sliver of pity for the innocent life that he took. And he is before the appropriate judge, a former woman's rights advocate known for her harsh sentences handed down to perpetrators of violence against women, 258 years to a rapist!

 

[MeeBee]

in addition, there isn't any provision in the SA law for Masipa to do so.. she cant drop it as low as culpable homicide from the lofty level of Murder with intent.


ah I bet he dreams of it too.

I have read she can consider culpable homicide.

 

[soozieqtips]

Intentionally killing an unidentified unarmed non threatening intruder or intentionally killing Reeva are the same thing, murder. Culpable homicide is not the same, CH is what OP can only dream of getting, but he won't.

Ohhh, thank you.

 

[MeeBee]

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=4191473

Reading this, it does seem to me the judge will have to form an opinion on if Oscar acted as a reasonable man would if she decides the state has not proven their case and decide between culpable homicide and intentional murder. But, of course, if they have, it will be intentional murder, period.

 

[Lyra500]

This is a link to the CNN website where they discuss to various possibly verdicts with a 'legal expert' James Grant:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/22/world/africa/pistorius-legal-q-and-a/

What happens if Pistorius is found not guilty of premeditated murder?

If Pistorius is found not guilty, he would face a "competent verdict" or lesser charge of culpable homicide, which is based on negligence.

Grant said the defense boiled down to Pistorius saying "I made a mistake."

If the court were to rule that the mistake was unreasonable -- based on what an objective, ordinary South African would do in the circumstances of the accused -- he would be found guilty of culpable homicide.

Grant said he would expect a court to probably conclude that it is unreasonable to fire at anybody through a closed door regardless of whether they were an intruder, because of the value of human life.

 

[Viper]

Where else?

I deleted that, I found it funny but thought later that you might not.

I have read the same things but it is coming from people with apparently no understanding if SA law, and it seems their comments are really more to add drama to the story.

 

[MeeBee]

I deleted that, I found it funny but thought later that you might not.

I have read the same things but it is coming from people with apparently no understanding if SA law, and it seems their comments are really more to add drama to the story.

Ok, well I might be a little over sensitive right now and maybe misread your intentions. I deleted my post too since it's not Importnat.

I don't have any understanding of SA law either but I'd like to. I don't think that's ignorant, I'm not from SA nor am I acquainted with their legal system. But from what I have read, culpable homicide is something the judge can consider, at her discretion. It doesn't mean she will, though, and I'm starting to have doubts about that. Though I can see her giving him CH then giving him the max sentence if she feels strongly enough. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[SeekingJana]

I might could have believed in the intruder theory until today. I've just seen photos of the cricket bat and it's covered in blood with what appears to be blood cast off droplets as well on the floor beside it. Plus, the entire trail of where he walked carrying her is bloody and corpses don't keep on bleeding. I had thought she died instantly from GSWs. Now, I think she was alive and bled out for a time, at least shortly, after she was shot.

I posted a link to the newly released photos in the photo thread. I can't find any plausible or even possible explanation for what I am seeing unless the gunshots didn't quite kill her, or he wasn't sure if she was dead and dragged her out of the toilet closet of the bathroom ( a very small space for 2 adults) and beat her in the head with the bat in the main part of the bathroom.

Here is the link to the photos. The photo of the cricket bat is evident and is labeled. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lla-shot-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

 

[Trooper]

Previously, ( meaning, pre 1948 , inserted by poster ) South African case law took the view that a person who kills intentionally, but in mitigating circumstances, is guilty of culpable homicide rather than murder. For example, where a man uses excessive force to defend himself from attack and kills his assailant, this would be culpable homicide. However, later decisions by the Appellate Division strongly support the trend towards excluding a verdict of culpable homicide where intent to kill is proved.

judge Masipa herself would have spent her whole time as a judge never bringing down anything like a murder charge to 'culpable homicide'..... in fact, the Appellate Div in Pretoria, and also Capetown, I think, I don't have the cutoff date for CP but it wouldn't be this century, but certainly Pretoria Appellate divvy, since 1953., hasn't even adjudicated such a case.

but hey!!.... lets see how it goes.

 

[Viper]

Ok, well I might be a little over sensitive right now and maybe misread your intentions. I deleted my post too since it's not Importnat.

I don't have any understanding of SA law either but I'd like to. I don't think that's ignorant, I'm not from SA nor am I acquainted with their legal system. But from what I have read, culpable homicide is something the judge can consider, at her discretion. It doesn't mean she will, though, and I'm starting to have doubts about that. Though I can see her giving him CH then giving him the max sentence if she feels strongly enough. We'll just have to wait and see.

Yes, wait and see. But the picture of the events that happened that night are becoming much clearer now that Gavel and Gnb??? have dissected the evolving fairy tale! I strongly believe that OP is going down for Murder and now it is his lawyers quest to not get the Premeditation enhancement thrown at him too, because if he goes down on that charge the judge could give him more than the mandatory 25 years.

At first OP and his attorneys saw a light at the end of the tunnel and requested a charge of culpable homicide at the bail hearing. But now the investigations are done, the witness's testimony has been learned, and that light no longer exists.

 

[DebinGA]

IIRC OP's affi contends she was alive when he found her. The state's pathologist noted the arterial sprays showed her heart was still pumping for a time.

 

[Cherwell]

I might could have believed in the intruder theory until today. I've just seen photos of the cricket bat and it's covered in blood with what appears to be blood cast off droplets as well on the floor beside it. Plus, the entire trail of where he walked carrying her is bloody and corpses don't keep on bleeding. I had thought she died instantly from GSWs. Now, I think she was alive and bled out for a time, at least shortly, after she was shot.

I posted a link to the newly released photos in the photo thread. I can't find any plausible or even possible explanation for what I am seeing unless the gunshots didn't quite kill her, or he wasn't sure if she was dead and dragged her out of the toilet closet of the bathroom ( a very small space for 2 adults) and beat her in the head with the bat in the main part of the bathroom.

Here is the link to the photos. The photo of the cricket bat is evident and is labeled. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lla-shot-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

Blood will continue to flow and drip after someone has died - it won't spurt, but it doesn't just turn off like a tap, or clot immediately. A lot of blood droplets came off her hair and are the cause of much of the trail.

 

[nastasya]

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=4191473

Reading this, it does seem to me the judge will have to form an opinion on if Oscar acted as a reasonable man would if she decides the state has not proven their case and decide between culpable homicide and intentional murder. But, of course, if they have, it will be intentional murder, period.

This is where Pistorius will be totally screwed.

Every night millions of reasonable men in South Africa go to bed sleeping beside a woman.

Every night women get up to pee.

Every morning the man and woman wake up together to start a new day.

That's because it's nowhere close to reasonable to shoot your wife in the toilet when you hear a noise in your bathroom in the middle of the night.

Especially when 5 of your neighbors heard her screaming.

 

[MeeBee]

This is where Pistorius will be totally screwed.

Every night millions of reasonable men South Africa go to bed sleeping beside a woman.

Every night women get up to pee.

Every morning the man and woman wake up together to start a new day.

That's because it's nowhere close to reasonable to shoot your wife in the toilet when you hear a noise in your bathroom in the middle of the night.

Especially when 5 of your neighbors heard her screaming.

You're totally right. The judge may feel the same way.

 

[Trooper]

Yes, wait and see. But the picture if the events that happened that night are becoming much clearer now that Gavel and Gnb??? have dissected the evolving fairy tale! I strongly believe that OP is gong down for Murder and now it is his lawyers quest to not get the Premeditation enhancement thrown at him too, because if he goes down on that charge the judge could give him more than the mandatory 25 years.

At first OP and his attorneys saw a light at the end of the tunnel and requested a charge of culpable homicide at the bail hearing. But now the investigations are done, the witness's testimony has been learned, and that light no longer exists.

I honestly think Roux and Oscar, and Poor Kenny Oldwage were utterly full of victory at the bail hearing. Oldwage, who was Carl Pistorious 's barrister had just won Carl a lenient sentence because he actually succeeded in getting Carl's charge dropped BEFORE trial to culpable homicide in his vehicular killing..


Roux was very shocked that he didn't get that same charge for Oscar.. . he was still arguing it at the bail hearing.

 

[steveml]

Here's a link from an attorney's office in Pretoria, SA.

Now, if anybody should understand SA law these guys certainly should.

It explains the possible punishments in the trial, and the difference between the charges (with not too much lawyer speak involved). I've posted the link once before, but they have updated the site due to public interest...

http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/recent-court-judgements/comment-oscar-pistorius-trial

 

[DebinGA]

What, if anything, was different about that night that might have been the source of an argument that escalated out of control?

* Tropika Island was to air in 3 days: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ily-reveal-theyre-hooked-reality-TV-show.html

Other OP-fuse lighting ideas?

 

[SeekingJana]

IIRC OP's affi contends she was alive when he found her. The state's pathologist noted the arterial sprays showed her heart was still pumping for a time.

Thank you for the info. ITA with this.
But- is the blood seen on the cricket bat from her arterial wounds? When I look at it, I think that he hit her with it at some point. It's bloody on the end that would be swung to hit her, not the other end and it's not exactly sprayed, it seems. I haven't read her autopsy, and don't know if any of her wounds could have been caused by an object other than a bullet.. I didn't see the bloody ended bat until about an hour ago.

 

[sorrell skye]

Intentionally killing an unidentified unarmed non threatening intruder or intentionally killing Reeva are the same thing, murder. Culpable homicide is not the same, CH is what OP can only dream of getting, but he won't.

BBM

According to the indictment, this is true.

The inclusion in the charging document of error in persona (error of the person) means that OP has no statutory basis that he killed Reeva by mistake when he intended to kill an intruder.

I'm certain that Mr. Nel included this error in persona in the indictment because it's based on SA criminal statutes.

As far as I'm concerned, the State has proven unlawful and intentional murder, which is what OP has been charged with (in addition to the firearms & ammunition charges).

Based on OP's BH affidavit and his plea statement, I think the Defense is trying to mitigate the crime by hopefully convincing the Judge that OP is a paranoid coward because of his status as a double amputee. I expect OP will have to expound on this when he testifies.

If OP thought he was "mortified' after he killed Reeva, I suspect he's going to be truly mortified (embarrassed, ashamed, humiliated) when he has to try to persuade Judge Masipa that he's a paranoid coward, knowing the entire world is listening.

 

[MeeBee]

Here's a link from an attorney's office in Pretoria, SA.

Now, if anybody should understand SA law these guys certainly should.

It explains the possible punishments in the trial, and the difference between the charges (with not too much lawyer speak involved). I've posted the link once before, but they have updated the site due to pubic interest...

http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/recent-court-judgements/comment-oscar-pistorius-trial

:goodpost: