Trial Discussion Thread #16

[BritsKate]

Perceived intruder - OP shoots 4 times, doesn't know who's in toilet - uses cricket bat to break open door.

That's a simple summary of OP's account. I'm not convinced there's much more to it yet.

I've not heard one person suggest that he didn't shoot Reeva 4 times through the door. That would be pointless as that fact already appears in his statement.
The burning question is did he know it was Reeva behind the door?

I believe the screams, so yes, I believe he did know it was her. Legally though, I think it's irrelevant whether it was her or an intruder.

Nel argued in the bail application that even if Pistorius didn’t intend killing Steenkamp, he certainly did intend to kill the person behind the door

http://ewn.co.za/2014/03/27/What-will-Gerrie-Nel-ask-Oscar-Pistorius

IIRC Capt. Mangena said position of shots indicated OP was likely on his stumps shooting from his shoulder, not from his waist as he would have if wearing his legs. He said OP shot RS from no closer than 60 cm (2 ft.), but did he say how far back OP could have been? Roux probably wants OP as far away as possible, but do we know where OP has claimed he was as he shot?

3 metres. He doesn't state his position in his bail affidavit.

Mangena also testified that Pistorius fired the shots from a distance of at a minimum 60cm, and at a maximum around 3 metres.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-03-19-pistorius-trial-week-two-day-three/#.UzrrlvldWMN

IMO, he minimized her injuries if it is true that Netcare told him to move her.

I think his statement about Netcare is true because it is something that he knows can be confirmed.

To a point. Netcare does record calls according to their website but Botha admitted during the bail hearing never confirming with Netcare that OP had called. So...I don't know if a recording was salvaged. They may only have the phone records.

Roux asked Botha if the police had checked with Netcare whether Pistorius had called them, as he said in his affidavit.

"No, we didn't," said Botha. The court heard earlier that four cellphones were found at Pistorius' home – two Blackberrys and two iPhones.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-20-pistorius-whimpers-while-listening-to-rouxs-appeal

 

[steveml]

One things that has always bothered me is: for someone who was
a) in the throes of terror washing through him [insert LOL here]
b) in the pitch dark of night
c) shooting through a closed wooden door on his stumps

the defendant had pretty damn good aim. I would imagine someone shooting under the circumstances above would have missed a good deal of shots. :moo:

That is an extremely valid point.

If we accept that this the shooting was way beyond skill, and we're not willing to accept it was four random shots fired at a door, perhaps there's another angle we should be looking at.

:thumb:

 

[G.bng]

Looking at this issue it is important to note that a severed artery that can shoot blood from the bedroom hall all the way to the bedside wall is impossible. If it were possible the WC would have pints and pints and pints of Reeva's blood covering the walls and pooling on the floor, and the walls outside of the WC and proceeding down the hallway would also have blood spatter.

Also, a person with a severed artery has literally only minutes to live. So here we are with time again. It took OP so many minutes to actually carry Reeva downstairs. If she was alive all of those minutes, laying in the bathroom floor, her heart would continue to pump blood through her body and it wound bleed out of her hip, arm, and head profusely, creating a huge pool of blood perhaps as large as a meter in diameter. So it makes sense to me that she died in the WC, and when OP pulled her out some blood (very little given she had severed artery) pooled from her wounds.

Just my thoughts..

I agree with you, Reeva was basically died in the WC and iirc the expert confirmed this only noting arterial spurting in the WC. Down the stairs he noted the blood spots were as being from pools of blood accumulated in her wounds dripping.

 

[MeeBee]

I agree with you, Reeva was basically died in the WC and iirc the expert confirmed this only noting arterial spurting in the WC. Down the stairs he noted the blood spots were as being from pools of blood accumulated in her wounds dripping.

There was arterial spurt blood patterns found downstairs, according to the blood spatter expert.

 

[soozieqtips]

I believe the screams, so yes, I believe he did know it was her. Legally though, I think it's irrelevant whether it was her or an intruder.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/03/27/What-will-Gerrie-Nel-ask-Oscar-Pistorius

3 metres. He doesn't state his position in his bail affidavit.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-03-19-pistorius-trial-week-two-day-three/#.UzrrlvldWMN

To a point. Netcare does record calls according to their website but Botha admitted during the bail hearing never confirming with Netcare that OP had called. So...I don't know if a recording was salvaged. They may only have the phone records.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-20-pistorius-whimpers-while-listening-to-rouxs-appeal

BBM - Okay, so I assume they must still have the recording. It would be strange to delete it knowing that OP was being accused of murder, and that the call details would probably be needed as part of his defence.

 

[patCee]

I thought Dr Stipp stated that in his opinion they were definitely gunshots. Roux tried but failed to get him to say it might have been bat strikes.

That's true, and he explained that he had been in the military many years ago and knew the sound of gun shots.

 

[G.bng]

But what would the other reason be, though .. why else would he be doing it?

OP was doing it to clear Reeva's airways, Stipp actually said this at least twice in his description of what happened. I have just before this posted a long reply with the transcript of al the medical part of Stipp's testimony to the poster because they clearly have it wrong.

 

[DebinGA]

I don't understand what you're saying?

That someone laid on her back, her mouth filled/filling with blood, has no chance of breathing until turned on her side, allowing the blood to flow out. Ditto finally carrying her down the stairs head back/chin up, after leaving her to die alone in the toilet while he ran hither and yon.

 

[G.bng]

I disagree. Arterial spray is powerful. The force of blood pressure, even in a faintly beating heart, is very strong. I have seen arterial spray go many feet. The heart, as we all know, can take minutes to die after the brain has died or been injured. Then there's the matter of a rapidly losing blood heart starting and stopping. I believe there actually was arterial spray in the toilet room and in the bathroom. If Reeva was in a certain position for a while, for instance, bent at hips, head in toilet, then all the initial spray could have pooled as opposed to spurting out. It wasn't until Oscar began moving her, and her heart, faintly trying to beat, that the spray began getting all over the walls and the sofa and stuff. There can't be arterial spray unless the heart is beating.

From my recollection the expert found no arterial spurt blood patterns except in the WC, the rest was just dripping from pooled blood, he even explained this in respect of the drops of blood down the stairs.

 

[Viper]

The pathologist did not say all of that, it's an assumption made on this board and it is a wrong one, IMO. That's not how the human body works. Any kind of pressure on a wound is not going to create the kind of pressure the heart will and cause arterial spray. It just cannot be. He didn't explicitly say it, because all those things will not necessarily show in an autopsy and Nel didn't ask him because it's not actually important to him. The blood splatter expert also didn't say this is arterial spray but it was probably just caused by pushing on the wounds. That too is nonsensical. There's only one thing that can cause arterial spray. And I'm curious why you think Roux is fighting the died downstairs thing? I haven't heard him argue the point particularly vehemently. He seems pretty on board with the death upstairs thing.

I work in healthcare. It is very hard to describe to you in short posts that things are different IMO than what some are interpreting. One of the easiest ways I can think of is to compare Reeva's dead body being able to spit blood is by linking to a compression device:

Quote:
The primary functional aim of the device “is to squeeze blood from the underlying deep veins, which, assuming that the valves are competent, will be displaced proximally.” When the inflatable sleeves deflate, the veins will replenish with blood. The intermittent compressions of the sleeves will ensure the movement of venous blood.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_pneumatic_compression

Also, the veins and arteries don't allow blood to keep bleeding out after the heart stops. Information can be found at Wikipedia.

Reggie Perumal (sp) is OPs expert, he attended the autopsy. He said in interviews that Reeva was using the bathroom when she was killed, and he said she died on the way downstairs. His version of those two things was tailored around what OP needs things to be, so there is a reason they needed her to die much later than she did.

 

[MeeBee]

From my recollection the expert found no arterial spurt blood patterns except in the WC, the rest was just dripping from pooled blood, he even explained this in respect of the drops of blood down the stairs.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/03/19/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Blood-spatter-expert-testifies

Van der Nest testified that he became involved in the case when he was called to attend Steenkamp’s post-mortem.

“I attended the crime scene the same day as the post-mortem, 15 February.”

He said he was called to answer questions by investigators about blunt force trauma on Steenkamp’s body.

“Spatter found in the downstairs lounge was caused by an arterial spurt. The stairs are above the lounge.”

He said there was a distinctive pattern in the shape of the letter ‘S’ which indicated an arterial spurt.

“The blood-soaked shorts and hair of the deceased contributed to the dripping pattern.”

He added that blood smudges on the staircase handrail were probably caused by blood-soaked hair.

 

[Trotterly]

That is an extremely valid point.

If we accept that this the shooting was way beyond skill, and we're not willing to accept it was four random shots fired at a door, perhaps there's another angle we should be looking at.

:thumb:

I think he could have been firing from the hip. That he knew where Reeva was in the toilet having bashed a hole in it. If you know here your target is trapped then shooting from the hip is more likely. Therefore, of course, he had his prostheses on.

 

[G.bng]

Dr Stipp.. said Oscar was distraught.. he believed genuinely distraught, and I trust his perception on that.. distraught people would be his daily lot, I suppose..

I ... well. I suppose he could have been trying out some first aid stuff, but without being harsh.. her head had a black talon bullit thru it. parts of her scalp and skull etc, was still splattered all over the upstairs toilet pan..

I'll go with Stipp on this one, and put it in the Oscar distraught basket and not even try and guess.

Dr Stipp didn't notice the head wound at first so it couldn't have been such a huge wound... the the bits spattered on the toilet lid where small not huge chunks and in desperation people will try anything, even Dr Stipp who was also trying to clear Reeva's airways to administer CPR until he realised she was morally wounded.

 

[MeeBee]

That someone laid on her back, her mouth filled/filling with blood, has no chance of breathing until turned on her side, allowing the blood to flow out. Ditto finally carrying her down the stairs head back/chin up, after leaving her to die alone in the toilet while he ran hither and yon.

Ok, I just don't understand how that relates to the post you originally quoted.

 

[steveml]

There is a far higher probability that you would hit someone in the head through a door by luck rather than intentional skill. Ask a partner to lay on the toilet floor (if you've one of a similar size), stand outside and put your finger on the door where you think their head will be. Then open the door, keeping your finger where it is, and follow the line of trajectory. Remember, a bullet is narrower than the tip of your finger. When you've had 10 goes, please let me know how many times you were bang on the target (even clipping an ear doesn't count).

*if your partner complains, it wasn't my idea. :notgood: Tell them it's science-aid week or something.

 

[MeeBee]

I work in healthcare. It is very hard to describe to you in short posts that things are different IMO than what some are interpreting. One of the easiest ways I can think of is to compare Reeva's dead body being able to spit blood is by linking to a compression device:

Quote:
The primary functional aim of the device “is to squeeze blood from the underlying deep veins, which, assuming that the valves are competent, will be displaced proximally.” When the inflatable sleeves deflate, the veins will replenish with blood. The intermittent compressions of the sleeves will ensure the movement of venous blood.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_pneumatic_compression

Also, the veins and arteries don't allow blood to keep bleeding out after the heart stops. Information can be found at Wikipedia.

Reggie Perumal (sp) is OPs expert, he attended the autopsy. He said in interviews that Reeva was using the bathroom when she was killed, and he said she died on the way downstairs. His version of those two things was tailored around what OP needs things to be, so there is a reason they needed her to die much later than she did.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm certain that pushing on a wound cannot cause the kind of spurt that the heart or a compression sleeve can. Compression sleeves are used to keep blood moving so you don't get blood clots. It's not by pushing blood but by compressing and decompressing. It's just not the same.

I also don't agree with your last statement. Even after the heart has stopped wounds will continue to bleed unless they clot, depending on the nature of the wound. Your assertion that the arterial spray is not actually arterial spray is your opinion and it doesn't make sense. Your other assertion that Roux is fighting this is not something that seems consistent with what I've read. He does not seem to be fighting this.

 

[DebinGA]

Ok, I just don't understand how that relates to the post you originally quoted.

I see that now. This is the second day in a row that a facetious post of mine has caused confusion. Thanks are asking for clarification, as I now see the need to prevent this in future.

 

[steveml]

I think he could have been firing from the hip. That he knew where Reeva was in the toilet having bashed a hole in it. If you know here your target is trapped then shooting from the hip is more likely. Therefore, of course, he had his prostheses on.

Thanks,

This was originally prosecutor Nel's claim - by OP putting his prosthesis on before shooting Reeva, it allowed sufficient time for the murder to be premeditated. There was something that made them change their mind, but I'm not sure what it was.

 

[MeeBee]

I see that now. This is the second day in a row that a facetious post of mine has caused confusion. Thanks are asking for clarification, as I now see the need to prevent this in future.

No worries, I didn't know if it was me or you lol.

 

[MeeBee]

Thanks,

This was the originally prosecutor Nel's claim - by OP putting his prosthesis on before shooting Reeva, it allowed sufficient time for the murder to be premeditated. There was something that made them change their mind, but I'm not sure what it was.

I think he had to as it's his own expert's opinion that Oscar was not on his prosthesis. He had no choice but to change his claim.