Trial Discussion Thread #16

[nastasya]

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

I think you were saying that you believed that shooting at somebody four times behind the door was to scare them, not to kill them.

And when you said unfortunately Reeva collapsed I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic.

Would you have expected her to remain standing after being hit in the hip or legs?

So is your belief that the killer was warning the victim by shoot four bullets at hip level? And it was unfortunate that the victim had the audacitiy to fall down and allow herself to be killed by the other three warning shots?

So it was the victim's fault she was killed by the warning shots?

 

[Really?]

As a nurse you know the answer to your own question I am sure. :wink:

Regarding the video that you watched it was noted that the victim survived for some time, he was not dead in the video. Interesting the massive amount of bleeding in just a 15-30 seconds and from only one gunshot wound!

You are a nurse and have knowledge and experience that others do not. My reply to you was for our entire forum of people with likewise unique experiences and knowledge, so that we can all share understandings and information. The video is I believe a very useful learning tool related to the subject that we are discussing at present.

sorry vips....i'm still not gonna look at that video......I believe you.

 

[nastasya]

I'd like to. :smile: but...

Being able to see through the panel would make it more difficult. I know you're going to think it strange but it's not. I'll explain...

To see Reeva you've got to be quite close to the panel. As soon as you get close to the panel you cannot hold the gun in front of you, there's no room. You can't be right up to the door as the gun wasn't fired from against the door. This means that your eyes are looking through the panel, and your arm cannot naturally follow your line of sight. You literally have to shoot one-handed with your arm bent more or less from your hip, and pulled backwards (your arm needs to be as far back from the door as the minimum distance specified by the expert witness).

The easiest example I can give you is shooting pool. To get the ball in the pocket you look down the cue and line everything up (even then you may still miss). Now, try to pot that same ball with the pool cue stuck out at the side of you rather than directly in front of you. Your eyes can look straight at the pocket (OP looking at Reeva's head), the cue is out to the side (OP's gun) and your hoping to hit the ball in the pocket (bullet to target). The shot becomes much more difficult. Remember, this is a bullet, not a pool ball.

The far more accurate way to fire a gun is to stand further back from the door, put both hands in front of you, look along the sight at where you want to fire, and shoot. This is exactly how you learn to shoot on a shooting range. You hardly ever see anyone shoot one-handed, and certainly nobody does it for accuracy.

This is why I'm convinced that OP was a few feet back from the door when he fired. He put his arms out front and fired four quick shots through the door. No specific target, just at the most likely area someone would be.

Great explanation. I'll have to go shoot pool tonight and think about this one...

 

[Viper]

We do know with certainty that it wasn't 3:17am because the security phone records show Dr. Stipp talking to Baba and reporting the gunshots (2nd set of bangs) at 3:15:51. I'm guessing those 2nd bangs were between 3:14 & 3:15.

The first set of bangs were heard by Mrs. Stipp at 3:02am according to her clock which may have been a few minutes fast. Also, Baba testified that the guards who were working that night heard gunshots at "shortly past 3am". So the first shots were likely some time between 3:00am and 3:02am.

This is the closest we can come based off of what we know. We are looking at roughly 12 minutes+ in between noises.

BIB. Did you mean gunshot "sounds"? No one saw OP fire any of the gunshots, so the gunshot sounds and the cricket bat sounds have to be identified in another way - other than Dr. Stipp who was closest and has military training and heard both sets of "sounds."

 

[BritsKate]

You're seriously not suggesting that it won't make a huge difference for Reeva's family to know that Reeva died without being stalked and terrorized?

It's not often I'm lost for words.

I can't even begin to imagine the Steenkamp's suffering...but when my friend was the victim of a rape/homicide, I didn't stop to consider what she didn't endure, only what she was left to suffer.

They took her from so many who loved her - the how, where, and why almost just didn't matter - just that she was gone. I wanted her killers to pay for taking her but even that was little solace in all honesty - it just helped knowing they couldn't hurt anyone else. So...I can imagine for the Steenkamps whether Oscar meant to kill Reeva or not isn't nearly so important as the fact that Reeva isn't with them because of Oscar, for whatever reason.

JMO

 

[nastasya]

Ok, scare, maim, injure, warning shot to legs, etc etc. the point I was making was that if he was shooting to kill, the person, the most logical thing to do would be to to aim higher where the head would be. I don't see the reason to aim low if you're trying to kill.

Ok, now I understand. That makes sense.

Especially if it was dark in the room.

Or if killer thought victim was sitting on the toilet, shots would have been at close to head level.

 

[steveml]

I agree .. but .. it's actually Reeva who deserves the correct verdict, at the end of the day. If she went through hell that night with a lengthy, vicious argument being terrorised and chased all over the house , and then went on to receive even worse hell with those bullet injuries, then it is she who deserves the correct verdict and sentence to be passed, and it is for her memory that her final moments should be recorded correctly and not attributed to a made up story by OP.

I actually would prefer the truth to be that it was OP's version of events, because out of the two hideous choices, his version would've been marginally better for her .. I'm not particularly concerned about whether the verdict turns out right or wrong for him, but it must be the right verdict for Reeva and it must be put on record exactly how she died. Hopefully, if it was a domestic violence incident, then some good may come out of it by being such a high profile one .. and Reeva's horrible, tragic, death won't all have been in vain.

We'll agree to disagree. Correct justice applies to everyone in SA and in my country.

 

[G.bng]

I've already answered this question.

I don't know exactly when or what time the defense plans on contending the bangs happened as they have not presented their case yet. The questions was has the defense said the first set of bangs happened at 3:00? The answer is no.

Don't know if I understand correctly but are you saying the defence hasn't said whether bats or shot were first, because if you are I have to disagree because I heard Roux insisting the last volley were the bats with several witnesses.

(have been short and sharp here 'cos I'm only one to two pages behind now and then bed until tomorrow when I start trying to catch up again!)

 

[Viper]

Thanks for asking this question .. this is something I am interested to know, too.

The police photos of the toilet show a bowl of water tinted with dark red blood. A bullet fragment was recovered from it a day or two later as well. So IMO and logic the toilet was never flushed.

 

[steveml]

I can't even begin to imagine the Steenkamp's suffering...but when my friend was the victim of a rape/homicide, I didn't stop to consider what she didn't endure, only what she was left to suffer.

They took her from so many who loved her - the how, where, and why almost just didn't matter - just that she was gone. I wanted her killers to pay for taking her but even that was little solace in all honesty - it just helped knowing they couldn't hurt anyone else. So...I can imagine for the Steenkamps whether Oscar meant to kill Reeva or not isn't nearly so important as the fact that Reeva isn't with them because of Oscar, for whatever reason.

JMO

I appreciate that. It's a hole that can never be filled. Personally it would give me a great deal of comfort if someone close to me knew very little at the time, rather than spent their final hours enduring a long terror ordeal.
Just opinions as you say.

 

[Danta]

Imagine for a minute, OP carrying a bloody, dripping RS(how close in weight and size were they?) down tiled steps without being able to feel where you're touching the ground(prosthetics on) and iirc the testimony was that her mangled arm was swinging loose and you have adrenaline pumping through your body as you round the corner halfway down the steps(hurrying to get her in a car)... even with the blood just draining out of her, down her arm, off her hair, her leg and probably her blood soaked toes bouncing with the movement, sure you can see how splatter could end up in the lounge seeing as it's an open staircase overlooking it?

Yes, thanks I can imagine what you are saying. At first I thought you meant that somehow the pressure was causing the blood to spurt, but now I realize that you are talking about the pattern.

It still puzzles me how the blood could go across the room to the couch area?

It is hard to know because we didn't hear the pathologist's testimony, maybe we will hear OP's unless that is decided against as well.

 

[lisasalinger]

BIB. Did you mean gunshot "sounds"? No one saw OP fire any of the gunshots, so the gunshot sounds and the cricket bat sounds have to be identified in another way - other than Dr. Stipp who was closest and has military training and heard both sets of "sounds."

Yes, to be accurate I was referring to each set of sounds, understanding that none of us are 100% sure yet on which happened when.

It's important to note that not only did Dr. Stipp report "gunshots" to Baba at 3:15:51, the other neighbor, Mr. Nhlengthwa, also specifically reported "gunshots" to Baba at 3:16:36. Nhlengthwa had tried to get thru at 3:16:15 but there was no answer (probably because he was talking to Stipp).

It's interesting to me that only the Stipps heard the 1st set of bangs, but everybody else heard the 2nd set of bangs. That tells me the 2nd set was louder.

 

[G.bng]

Thanks for your point of view.
I am a little confused now because I thought bullet b lined up with a laser with point E on the wall which I understood was the furthest one on the left ( on the part of the wall that looks like it is built round the soil stack ) and was a direct hit if I remember rightly .
In any event all the rods that are shown in the door are pointing right to left which is more towards the loo .
All I can say is if it was me and I was going to try and hit an intruder I would have shot straight forward as well as left and right but I have no experience with a gun so probably not best placed to comment

When I said "above the magazine rack" I should have clarified that it was to the left of it not straight up above it and I can't see your original comment now but it didn't seem to tally with what you were proposing. I am almost positive Mangena showed the missed bullet hitting the wall in front of the door and saying that from there it ricocheted, pieces of it ending up hitting Reeva's back. But I agree all shots he showed as pointing towards the bowl area.

 

[steveml]

Yes, except iirc they dispute Mrs Stipp's timing and say it was more like 3:08 or so.

Aww. Not Mrs Stipp again, What's she done now?

:dunno:

 

[Viper]

Well, it certainly helps the defenses case when the states witnesses were ADAMENT they heard 4 gunshots,and the Burgers testified they know what gunshots sound like, at just past 3am(as did most other witnesses).

Really not following that logic. If he shot her at 3:00 or 3:17 he still shot her. All that OP is dreaming about is washing away the argument he had for 17 minutes and Reeva's blood curdling screams, by way of saying that he shot her and then had a 17 minute screaming and arguing session with himself before he bothered to pick up the phone and call for help for her. Weird IMO, I can't believe that the DT would even consider presenting that story let alone do it on live television worldwide.

 

[Danta]

Anyone who doesn't want to take the time to answer or repeat can scroll past. Most people on WS the years I've been here have been really understanding that not everyone can be here every week, let alone everyday. There are lots of people who are really interested in the outcome and development of a case but real life just doesn't allow them to follow as closely/often as they'd like. It isn't an offense worth an apology, in my opinion. We gotta make do with the cards life deals us...I, however, don't think you should stop posting as a result.

JMO

I agree, keep posting. I was watching the trial live, in my neck of the woods, (remote state, Alaska) we get charged for how much we download on the computer. My bill came to about $400 dollars. I think the testimony is a great way to hear the evidence, but for me a shocking expense!

 

[Val1]

Was the right hand side gap in door from missing splinters/wood out from the door before the shots were fired? Thanks

It all depends on whether you believe the bat whacks came first, which imo they did. If you look closely at the upper part of the crack, you can see where the bat was wedged in to pry the panels out after the final volley of shots so imo it would have taken seconds to finish "opening" the door to either get to RS or the key then drag RS out of the toilet room, at which point I believe OP decided to call Stander and put his prosthetics on.

 

[lisasalinger]

Aww. Not Mrs Stipp again, What's she done now?

:dunno:

You make me laugh :giggle:

 

[jay-jay]

We'll agree to disagree. Correct justice applies to everyone in SA and in my country.

Well I have absolutely no idea how you can disagree that Reeva deserves a truthful verdict, for her sake and her memory .. whatever the truth was.

 

[G.bng]

You don't shoot four Black Talon 9 mm bullets at someone to scare them IMO. These bullets are designed to inflict maximum tissue damage. The ME Saayman said the wounds to RS's hip and arm each, alone, might have killed her because of the massive bleeding.

How about this instead: If you want to scare someone in the toilet, you fire once at the ceiling, and then yell at them to stay inside the toilet until the police arrive or you'll shoot to kill.

Maybe not to "scare" but I think you could shoot in a blind rage if you were wanting to throw your weight around... road rage idiots come to mind or those who drive a car at their ex, or bash a gf around. If the person stopped to think they would realise what they are doing but that's the problem, they don't and prisons are full of them over here. And pleeeease... I am absolutely not saying this would be any the less serious, less murder, etc. Anyone who can do something like that imo, no matter whether they think it's a burglar, a gf or even a dog, should be locked up very tightly for a very long long time.