Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Val1]

I agree with regard to the cubicle size - not much room at all,

It's quite reasonable to believe that by firing 4 shots into there he was likely to kill whoever was in there.

Just wondering, one of the toilet room pics in evidence is also labelled indicating there were wood splinters in the toilet bowl, along with the blood etc. How could those have got in there if the door had been broken/splintered after she'd received the headshot and came to rest on the toilet seat?

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-crime-scene-photos-murder-trial

 

[kittychi]

IMO, that the trajectory was low down shows me, just MO, that OP was trying to shoot to scare rather than kill. If he were you'd more expect the aim to be higher, to have a better chance of hitting something useful as opposed to the legs. Unfortunately, Reeva collapsed.

MO: Okay, if he was shooting to scare, he was not shooting into a vacuum. He knew there was a person in there.

IMO Your reasoning here doesn't seem to allow for the fact that Reeva would have screamed in pain and fear after the first shot. He would have heard the screaming and would have stopped, no? Instead, he kept shooting after he heard the screaming.

 

[jay-jay]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/whats-next-in-the-oscar-pistorius-trial.html

"It’s more likely that Pistorius’s lawyers are hoping the judge instead finds Pistorius guilty of “culpable homicide,” a verdict that suggests that Pistorius made a colossal mistake. South African criminal-law professor James Grant has noted how many people who mistakenly shoot and kill their loved ones in South Africa have walked out of court with no jail time at all after being handed that verdict."

"The judge has other options on the table, including finding him guilty of gross negligence, which carries a sentence of up to 15 years. And then there are the three weapons charges he also faces, which could put him away for a similar amount of time. No matter what, it’s the judge, not a jury, who has complete discretion in the Pistorius case, because ever since 1969, South Africa has had no jury trials (a decision made in the apartheid era to prevent racially charged verdicts). So a lot of what happens over the next few weeks depends entirely upon the judge."

"All of which might impact how Judge Masipa decides to view the Pistorius case.

Might she somehow look past all the ancillary issues surrounding this trial — plus what witnesses heard — and decide that Pistorius made a mistake? If so, Pistorius could get out of jail and start his life over — presumably with the 19-year-old girlfriend the media saw him stepping out with in the months before the trial. It’s a long shot. But given the exceptional nature of this case, who’s to say it’s impossible?"

.. and how many people who have murdered have the luxury of spending a whole year before their trial, living in a comfortable environment with friends or relatives, or being able to go swanning off on holiday (and finding a new girlfriend?) It beggars belief, quite frankly.

 

[Val1]

Yes, thanks I can imagine what you are saying. At first I thought you meant that somehow the pressure was causing the blood to spurt, but now I realize that you are talking about the pattern.

It still puzzles me how the blood could go across the room to the couch area?

It is hard to know because we didn't hear the pathologist's testimony, maybe we will hear OP's unless that is decided against as well.

That's just it, it didn't. The couch area you refer to was directly under the steps...

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/

 

[Feynman]

Yes, to be accurate I was referring to each set of sounds, understanding that none of us are 100% sure yet on which happened when.

It's important to note that not only did Dr. Stipp report "gunshots" to Baba at 3:15:51, the other neighbor, Mr. Nhlengthwa, also specifically reported "gunshots" to Baba at 3:16:36. Nhlengthwa had tried to get thru at 3:16:15 but there was no answer (probably because he was talking to Stipp).

It's interesting to me that only the Stipps heard the 1st set of bangs, but everybody else heard the 2nd set of bangs. That tells me the 2nd set was louder.

You don't think Merwe also heard the first set of bangs?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Or its just a leaky loo. Otherwise thats puts Reeva in the loo with a head shot at Oscars time frame of 3.10am*...leaving her dead on the seat 'not screaming for 13-15* minutes which we have had witnesses say she was, whilst he supposedly bashed down the door.
The head shot shut her up at 3.17am*.
The timber splinter in the toilet, was him prying the panels off post shooting and I believe that splinter could have landed on her and as he's dragged her from loo this has fallen into bowl. the bullet fragment already discerned as being a part of casing that exited the back of her head.

 

[Gavel Rash]

You don't think Merwe also heard the first set of bangs?

No I don't believe Merwe heard the first set of bangs. Her house position as Oscars plea describes (in defensive guilt detail) that she could not have heard an argument from her bedroom coming from his bedroom as it is other side of house. But Merwe heard the arguing at 2am. lending to theory they were either in upstairs semi lounge area at Reevas yoga mat or downstairs kitchen as both these areas have windows doors facing Merwes house position. This lends to theory the first set possibly not as loud 'thuds' as Burger? or Stipp? (cant remember) described them then followed by shots.

I am sure a sound test was done and Merwe complained of a 2am wakeup on the 21st feb 2014.

 

[Gavel Rash]

You don't think Merwe also heard the first set of bangs?

Stipps heard the first set of bangs as they were closet to open bathroom window facing their balcony and the echo of bat on wood in a tiled room at close proximity would have sounded like gun shots for sure.

 

[Danta]

That's just it, it didn't. The couch area you refer to was directly under the steps...

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/

I see. Thanks.

Here is where my confusion began. I was focusing on the idea that it was not blunt force trauma.

"09.10 Nel asks what caused blood spots in downstairs lounge. Van der Nest says he was asked to find out if was blunt force trauma in that room. He says it wasn't. "This was the result of arterial spurt that had arisen from above, from the landing of stairwell above." From the following article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ius-murder-trial-March-19-as-it-happened.html

So in his opinion it was from the landing and not even the walk downstairs.

 

[Viper]

There are water marks evenly spaced around the inside of the bowl through the blood.

Go look at how the water flows into the bowl after flushing. It's the only way this pattern can be explained.

Toilet was filling up with water after Reeva was bleeding into it.

The fact that the bowl's water was blood red indicates that Reeva had flushed the toilet in the seconds prior to being shot.

What I see is the toilet never being flushed. I believe her head and hair were on the seat, not over the bowl, and the blood was introduced onto the SEAT. Then it spread and flowed under the seat and in to the bowl. It would start to come to points like ice cycles do and then enter the bowl from UNDER the seat bottom. It does this from the center rear of the seat to the right lateral part of the seat. Then the toilet is leaking and water is constantly flowing very slowly that adds to the streaking. Difficult thing to describe over the Internet.

Anyway I really hate that image, it is the worst of them all as far as I am concerned.

 

[nastasya]

I Know. But he was still aiming down.

Yes, he was still aiming down.

And coincidentally his line of fire hit Reeva in the head.

Another amazing coincidence? Or was he aiming for her head?

In case you missed the most amazing coincidence, the killer claims he replicated the exact sounds of a woman being attacked and shot just seconds after a woman was attacked and shot in his house. And the neighbors? They just heard the replicated sounds of the attack, not the actual sounds of the killing.

 

[Viper]

Time! OP needs some serious time! That IMO is why his slimy hired pathologist is going to testify first, to give the "time" issue some kind of story credibility before OP gets up there and tells us how heroic he acted that night by spending 17 minutes screaming like a woman and arguing with himself after he killed Reeva before he could find a minute to call Stander and Netcare. That is going to be his story as I understand it. Don't know how his pathologist, Reggie, is going to explain that a woman with 5 gunshot wounds (including a gunshot to the head and two severed arteries) lived for 17 minutes (dying as she was carried down the stairs) and yet did not bleed to death seconds after receiving all of that trauma... Speaking of bleeding to death, I don't know how he is going to explain why after receiving all of that trauma there is very little blood in the crime scene at all.

 

[Trooper]

going on both of Oscars statements...

this is what he remembers as to the sounds he himself made and the meaning of those sounds.

1st... he 'yelled'.. get out, get out of my house.

2nd.. he 'yelled'.....Reeva , call the police.

3rd. he returns to the bathroom, 'calling' Reevas name.

4th. .. he goes to the balcony and 'screams' for help.

That's 2 yells, 1 calling, and 1 screaming for help.

He doesn't hear himself screaming like a woman , and at times, screaming like a man AND a woman, he doesn't hear himself do any of that .

Sounds of arguing, man and woman.. VDMewre... Oscar doesn't hear himself doing this.

gunshots, then screams, woman screaming, man screaming intermingled with gunshots.. Stipp. Oscar doesn't hear any of this. Doesn't hear himself screaming here at all. He hears nothing while he is firing...this is done, according to Oscar in a monk-like silence..

all up, and being generous to Oscar.. he uses his voice as a separate entity, in three modes ( yelling, calling, screaming )

11 words , in the speech pattern, yelling.

5 , just to be generous, callings of Reevas name..

then a episode of screaming for help.. ( mrs burgar says 3 helps.. Stipp says 3 helps . being generous again, throw in an extra screamed help = 4 helps , screamed

20 words..

witnesses testified to an argument that went on intermittently for about 40 mins.. prolonged screaming. terrified fearful screaming.. a woman screaming, a man screaming, a man calling for help help help.

Oscar.. who is, unarguably THE closest to all this verbalization, only hears himself speak a total of 20 words over the entire event. And only his own voice.. he hears no other voice, no separate human voice other than his own , at all, at any time.

the next human voice to enter into this scenario is Oscars, again, calling Johan Standar..

Oscars sequence of hearing a human voice is.. nothing., except his own until he hears Johan Standars voice on the phone after calling him.

so from the time he goes to sleep, the only human voice interaction Oscar has ( and I am leaving out his added extra of him stating in his 2nd go , that he spoke 'with' Reeva a few moments 'before'.. because, he doesn't say what he said, he doesn't say what she said, and he doesn't say 'before' what event.) is Standar.. he doesn't mention the mode of his voice, ie. calling yelling screaming to Standar, its reasonable to assume he was able to at least convey to Standar to get over to his house, because that's what Standar did.. so his mode of speaking at that time was comprehensible. Its not reasonable at this time to assume he directed Standar to call an ambo, unless Standar says he did, because one didn't arrive, and certainly Standar stated he hadn't called one to Dr Stipp.

so that's it. 20 words all up.

 

[MeeBee]

Yes, he was still aiming down.

And coincidentally his line of fire hit Reeva in the head.

Another amazing coincidence? Or was he aiming for her head?

In case you missed the most amazing coincidence, the killer claims he replicated the exact sounds of a woman being attacked and shot just seconds after a woman was attacked and shot in his house. And the neighbors? They just heard the replicated sounds of the attack, not the actual sounds of the killing.

Thanks, nastaya, I didn't miss that. I'm pretty well versed on what the defense is claiming.

 

[G.bng]

True enough, but if you look after the first shot and see Reeva huddled in the corner by the toilet, you would know to shoot towards that corner and could approximate fairly accurately where that corner was.

I was referring to aiming through a door to kill with with a head-shot based on sound alone, the theory of the original comment of several posts and replies back, so while, depending on a person's spacial and orientation abilities, it would be possible to calculate fairly accurately where the corner was, that would not indicate where the head was, and if Mangena is correct and Reeva had fallen back against the magazine rack, her head was not in the corner anyway.

Talking about the head shot, iirc, Mangena said the shot entered top right at the front running under her skull, i.e. under the top of the crown, to finally exit top left towards the back, at least if Mangena's hand explanations were anything to go by. So, if Mangena is correct, then Reeva's head had to have been upright, if not up and slightly back, when the bullet hit but it could not have been leaning forward as the Defence claim because in which case, due to the spherical nature of the crown and the angle and height of the shots, the bullet would have penetrated deeper into the skull to either embed itself there or exit at the back lower down. Will be interesting to hear Defence's expert and any rebuttal if Nel can. jmo

 

[Gavel Rash]

And don't forget the 'stomach' contents found in Reeva, that the DT are trying to offhand as being a bit of black magic, but is really a scientific and accurate assessment.



'It is interesting, given that most digestion and absorption occurs prior to the large intestine, that food, which at this point is primarily fiber, will spend more time in your large intestine than anywhere else during digestion. On average, food travels through the stomach in 1/2 to two hours, continues through the small intestine over the next two to six hours, and spends six to 72 hours in your large intestine before final removal by defecation.'

- See more at: http://hepatitiscnewdrugresearch.com/-healthy-liver---healthy-digestion.html#sthash.XEPXDZBo.dpuf

 

[vansleuths]

How would you explain this passage from the Juror 13th site. We know that the first set of bangs is the gunshots and the second set of bangs are the cricket bat. If that is the case, why would Mrs. Burger and Mr. Johnson hear screaming during the second set of bangs

********* Here is the passage ************

Burger and Johnson heard blood-curdling screaming immediately before and during the bangs that occurred at 3:17am. The screams trailed off with the last bang according to them. Dr. Stipp did not hear screaming immediately before and during the shots at 3:17am (these would be the second set of shots he heard),

 

[G.bng]

Yes, and I believe there is a strong possibility of him actually not having to serve a prison sentence at all for this .. if the defence team actually win their case, but only by virtue it can't be proven that OP intentionally killed Reeva. That really worries me, that that poor girl may well have gone through a hellish DV night and received horrific gunshot injuries on top of that, and yet he may still walk free.

I wouldn't want to raise your hopes too much, but from my reading of SA law, "intentionality" will be proven if the judge finds OP shot "unlawfully" (if PT proves OP knew it was Reeva it's a done deal, if OP's version that he shot at a burglar stands it is likely but I can't be sure) AND finds that it is reasonable to expect that shooting through the door with someone behind could likely cause death. In which case, the way I understand it, OP should be found guilty of murder, or at very least of culpable homicide, by way of transferred intent/malice, i.e. it wouldn't matter who the victim was. I am banking on this so I have to hope I am right. jmo

 

[K.T]

When has anybody targeted by voice? Show me incidents where killers hit parts of the body by targeting voice. Or is this something new that's never before happened?

This is real life not The Matrix.

Oscar Pistorius Plea Explanation:

"The discharging of my firearm was precipitated by a noise in the toilet, which I, in my fearful state knowing I was on my on my stumps, unable to run away or properly defend myself physically, believed to be the intruder/s to coming out of the toilet to attack Reeva and me."

Pistorius actually explains, or you can infer, that he fired at the noise of the intruder/s/Reeva because he was so petrified they were about to rush out and attack Reeva and himself. (I think that's probably a subconscious a statement of truth, he fired that night at the different movement or verbal noise of Steenkamp, using his aim to target whatever noises she was able to make because he did not want her to come out of the toilet stall alive.)

Ahh, and he is the matrix, but not the real one, the blue pill where the story ends and you believe whatever you want to believe

 

[lisasalinger]

How would you explain this passage from the Juror 13th site. We know that the first set of bangs is the gunshots and the second set of bangs are the cricket bat. If that is the case, why would Mrs. Burger and Mr. Johnson hear screaming during the second set of bangs

********* Here is the passage ************

Burger and Johnson heard blood-curdling screaming immediately before and during the bangs that occurred at 3:17am. The screams trailed off with the last bang according to them. Dr. Stipp did not hear screaming immediately before and during the shots at 3:17am (these would be the second set of shots he heard),

BBM

1. We don't know that the first set of bangs are the gunshots and the second the cricket bat. That is only a theory that has been floated by the Defense.

2. According to testimony, Dr. Stipp did hear the screams while he was on the balcony earlier, but he had gone back inside his room to put on clothes and call security. It was while he was inside dialing that the 2nd shots occurred. He stated that he was busy trying to get help so may have missed what was happening those last final moments (I'm paraphrasing). His wife however was out on the balcony about to walk inside when the 2nd bangs occurred and she testified that she heard the screams consistently up thru the last shot.