Trial Discussion Thread #16

[DebinGA]

OP locked RS in the cubicle? I've never seen such a lock on the outside of a room door. And given the SA crime stats, why didn't OP have outside motion detector lights installed? Our area in very safe but we have those on the garage and both outer doors. It's very common here.

 

[Really?]

I'm pretty sure that was more 'luck' than judgement .. I've not agreed with steveml on many things, but I do agree with him on the impossibility of OP knowing exactly where his target was. OP may have been able to make a fairly accurate guess with regard to the first shot if he had some idea that the person was standing directly behind the door (or Reeva actually shouting or screeming might indicate that she was standing in that position) .. but the remaining three shots can only have been guesses .. and, imo, he just carried on shooting until she was silenced. If she had have still been making some sort of noise after the forth shot (he probably stopped at that point to listen and make sure), he probably would've fired another couple of rounds (that were still left in his gun). I think that if we want to try and prove that OP intentionally killed Reeva, then it doesn't do the argument any good to go off into the realms of fantasy land.

it is really scary/sick to think that OP could have seen and aimed at Reeva through the crack in the door he made earlier.... while he was hitting the locked toilet door in a rage at her. ...but it looks that way to me. moo

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'm pretty sure that was more 'luck' than judgement .. I've not agreed with steveml on many things, but I do agree with him on the impossibility of OP knowing exactly where his target was. OP may have been able to make a fairly accurate guess with regard to the first shot if he the person was standing directly behind the door (or Reeva actually shouting or screeming might indicate that she was standing in that position) .. but the remaining three shots can only have been guesses .. and, imo, he just carried on shooting until she was silenced. If she had have still been making some sort of noise after the forth shot (he probably stopped at that point to listen and make sure), he probably would've fired another couple of rounds (that were still left in his gun). I think that if we want to try and prove that OP intentionally killed Reeva, then it doesn't do the argument any good to go off into the realms of fantasy land.

I understand what you are saying but to me it doesn't make sense to me for him to have aimed left if he thought he was trying to hit an intruder.
He did not say he was shooting to warn off or scare the intruder he states that he was shooting because he was in fear of his life .Someone genuinely in fear of their life would have aimed all over the place and peppered the door .

This case literally makes my head spin my thoughts are permanently all over the place and working overtime because fundamentally his version just does not sit well with me however hard I try . Lets see what the defence brings who knows things could look differently .JMO

 

[TorisMom003]

I've read that OP is 5'2" without his "legs". If there was prolonged arguing loud enough to be heard by neighbors, as I believe there was, is it likely OP the narcissist would do so on his stumps? Hard for me to imagine.

Sure. Why not? After seeing his muscles I would imagine that he has amazing upper body strength. He had also had weapons in the bedroom with him. There was not only the handgun but he also had a cricket bat, baseball bat, and airgun. I have personally witnessed a much shorter man take on a much taller, larger man in a verbal argument with the shorter man trying to turn it into a physical argument.

MOO

 

[Really?]

I understand what you are saying but to me it doesn't make sense to me for him to have aimed left if he thought he was trying to hit an intruder.
He did not say he was shooting to warn off or scare the intruder he states that he was shooting because he was in fear of his life .Someone genuinely in fear of their life would have aimed all over the place and peppered the door .

This case literally makes my head spin my thoughts are permanently all over the place and working overtime because fundamentally his version just does not sit well with me however hard I try . Lets see what the defence brings who knows things could look differently .JMO

BBM:

tell me about it.....last night I dreamt I was in Africa.

 

[Really?]

it is really scary/sick to think that OP could have seen and aimed at Reeva through the crack in the door he made earlier.... while he was hitting the locked toilet door in a rage at her. ...but it looks that way to me. moo

sorry...( to quote myself)........I have to add to this that that would account for the trajectory of shots......OP standing near shower looking through crack

 

[steveml]

You proposed that head shot was result of random, not-targeted firing of gun.

It wasn't.

First shot that hit Reeva's hip was in a substantially different direction than next three shots.

Killer paused after first shot, then changed where he was firing. Bullet hit Reeva in the head after killer re-aimed and fired 3 times.

It doesn't look like targeted to me Nastasya. I've had to think long and hard about this. The way I reasoned it was that if I believe that OP could see Reeva, and OP is a prolific shot that can hit specific parts through a wooden door whilst shooting from the hip, then he could have killed Reeva with the second shot.There was no need for 4 shots.

The Ballistics expert explained that if Reeva was standing she would have collapsed after the first shot onto the magazine rack. This happens instantly, she does not fail in slow motion, it's as quick as fainting. As a result of following a target the bullets do not move in a line down the door, if anything they are slightly side of each other which is what you'd expect to see from someone aiming at a general area, whilst on stumps in the dark.

If you stand a few feet from a wall with your hands out in front as if you are holding a gun, move your hands an inch or two to any side, and see how much this translates to when pointing at the wall. It's nothing unusual - the movement will be quite large. After a shot the gun recoils and you have to try and keep your hands where they were before the shot.

Just my opinion.

 

[nastasya]

If we go with the OP shot Reeva and Reeva screamed theory (Reeva screaming either before or during the shooting), it just flies in the face of the witness statements. The anomalies are so great that it would mean that the proportion of witnesses are grossly inaccurate or not telling the truth. I really don't believe that to be the case.

Even the delightful Mrs. Stipp. I don't believe a couple of things in her testimony when she was caught out, and she signed a sworn document knowingly incorrect, but regarding the timing of the events that morning - yes I believe she told truth.

I believe they all ultimately told the truth regarding the times of the noises they heard that morning. I believe that the cricket bat and gunshots sounds may have been confusing, and has led to many theories, but apart from the few noise discrepancies the timings weren't affected.

I do not think Reeva made a sound before she was shot, or during the seconds those 4 bullets were fired. I believe it was all over far too quickly for any sound to be heard.

As things stand, I believe the order of the incidents were gunshots, OP screaming out and crying, then cricket bat to break down the door. All the times from the witness statements correlate exactly. I don't think it's a coincidence.

This is what I believe the witnesses heard...

Johan Stipp - Gunshots - Man screaming out and crying -Cricket bat.

Annette Stipp - Gunshots - Man screaming out and crying - Cricket bat.

Estelle Van De Merwe - Gunshots - Man screaming out and crying.

Michelle Burger - Man screaming out and crying - Cricket bat.

Charl Johnson - Man screaming out and crying - Cricket bat.


:judge:

Let me make sure I understand your theory...

• Oscar shoots harmless wooden door four times.
  
• Oscar doesn't see Reeva in bed.
  
• Oscar does not look for Reeva in the house, and instead cries out like a woman being terrorized - all over holes in the door to this point.
  
• Oscar still doesn't look for Reeva, and gets bat and destroys the door.
  
• Oscar sees Reeva's bloody body, then stops crying for help.
  
• Security calls and Oscar suddenly doesn't need help anymore even though Reeva is bleeding out on the bathroom floor.
  
• All 5 witnesses mistook Oscar's voice for a woman.
  

Seriously? You really believe this is what happened?

Oscar flipped out and started shooting over hearing Reeva pee, AND

Oscar flipped out and screamed like a terrorized woman over holes in a door?

Then....

After seeing Reeva still alive, but seriously wounded, he stops his hysterics and tells security he doesn't need help?

Really?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BBM:

tell me about it.....last night I dreamt I was in Africa.

I just keep reliving her nightmare end .
I have lost weight this week and can't understand why this case has so much effect on me when I know women are being murdered all over the world regularly by their partners which i do get upset by them but not to this degree.
Reeva looked a bit like my two daughters one who is 18 and. One who is 25 so maybe it is that .
Even if it was a total accident a message needs to be sent out that using a gun so recklessly will result in tough punishments.

 

[Viper]

As for him going back upstairs - it was obviously something urgent that needed doing because as soon as someone else turned up he disappeared upstairs, when anyone genuinely upset and concerned would never in a million years have left their girlfriend whom they had just shot. Shifty actions of a guilty man. Not the actions of what I would call a normal person who had supposedly just been part of a terrible accident. More the actions of a guilty person desperate to cover their tracks.

I believe that if OP tried to "cover his tracks" it would likely appear clumsy to experienced investigators because OP is pumped full of adrenaline and not thinking straight… this is probably why we see so many "weird" things in the crime scene :

- Blood spatter or cast-off above headboard
- Blood on watch display case
- Duvet on floor in front of bed with blood on both sides
- Big fan in front of balcony door essentially blocking passage to balcony and right side of bed
- Etc...

What he did do correctly IMO is:

- Substitute his work phone in the bathroom to fool the police
- Hand off the actual phone he used that night to his brother for further tampering
- Wash his hands and discard hit shirt somewhere
- Pick up the air gun and place it in a "normal" position
- Etc...

 

[steveml]

I'm pretty sure that was more 'luck' than judgement .. I've not agreed with steveml on many things, but I do agree with him on the impossibility of OP knowing exactly where his target was. OP may have been able to make a fairly accurate guess with regard to the first shot if he had some idea that the person was standing directly behind the door (or Reeva actually shouting or screeming might indicate that she was standing in that position) .. but the remaining three shots can only have been guesses .. and, imo, he just carried on shooting until she was silenced. If she had have still been making some sort of noise after the forth shot (he probably stopped at that point to listen and make sure), he probably would've fired another couple of rounds (that were still left in his gun). I think that if we want to try and prove that OP intentionally killed Reeva, then it doesn't do the argument any good to go off into the realms of fantasy land.

Thanks jay-jay.

I know you won't let me off the hook with anything easily. :smile:

If I'm completely wrong the worse it can do is get people thinking about other possibilities.

 

[DebinGA]

Sure. Why not? After seeing his muscles I would imagine that he has amazing upper body strength. He had also had weapons in the bedroom with him. There was not only the handgun but he also had a cricket bat, baseball bat, and airgun. I have personally witnessed a much shorter man take on a much taller, larger man in a verbal argument with the shorter man trying to turn it into a physical argument.

MOO

I was thinking of the male-female aspect of it, not who was stronger. I have no idea how often OP goes legless, but I bet it wasn't often when around an attractive woman, especially one he wanted to intimidate at the time.

 

[Viper]

Let me make sure I understand your theory...

• Oscar shoots harmless wooden door four times.
  
• Oscar doesn't see Reeva in bed.
  
• Oscar does not look for Reeva in the house, and instead cries out like a woman being terrorized - all over holes in the door to this point.
  
• Oscar still doesn't look for Reeva, and gets bat and destroys the door.
  
• Oscar sees Reeva's bloody body, then stops crying for help.
  
• Security calls and Oscar suddenly doesn't need help anymore even though Reeva is bleeding out on the bathroom floor.
  
• All 5 witnesses mistook Oscar's voice for a woman.
  

Seriously? You really believe this is what happened?

Oscar flipped out and started shooting over hearing Reeva pee, AND

Oscar flipped out and screamed like a terrorized woman over holes in a door?

Then....

After seeing Reeva still alive, but seriously wounded, he stops his hysterics and tells security he doesn't need help?

Really?

:goodpost: :loveyou:

 

[nastasya]

I'm pretty sure that was more 'luck' than judgement .. I've not agreed with steveml on many things, but I do agree with him on the impossibility of OP knowing exactly where his target was. OP may have been able to make a fairly accurate guess with regard to the first shot if he had some idea that the person was standing directly behind the door (or Reeva actually shouting or screeming might indicate that she was standing in that position) .. but the remaining three shots can only have been guesses .. and, imo, he just carried on shooting until she was silenced. If she had have still been making some sort of noise after the forth shot (he probably stopped at that point to listen and make sure), he probably would've fired another couple of rounds (that were still left in his gun). I think that if we want to try and prove that OP intentionally killed Reeva, then it doesn't do the argument any good to go off into the realms of fantasy land.

It's not fantasyland to show that last 3 shots were all directed towards Reeva's head area.

It's a fact.

Killer heard her fall and directed shots downward. ME said it would be unnatural for her NOT to be screaming.

It's not a stretch to infer killer who's intnet was to kill would aim at source of screams.

 

[steveml]

I just keep reliving her nightmare end .
I have lost weight this week and can't understand why this case has so much effect on me when I know women are being murdered all over the world regularly by their partners which i do get upset by them but not to this degree.
Reeva looked a bit like my two daughters one who is 18 and. One who is 25 so maybe it is that .
Even if it was a total accident a message needs to be sent out that using a gun so recklessly will result in tough punishments.

It must be hard to get the case from your mind if you have daughters that look similar

I absolute agree with the tough punishment. I think they should lock him up for the maximum the law allows in either case.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

As for him going back upstairs - it was obviously something urgent that needed doing because as soon as someone else turned up he disappeared upstairs, when anyone genuinely upset and concerned would never in a million years have left their girlfriend whom they had just shot. Shifty actions of a guilty man. Not the actions of what I would call a normal person who had supposedly just been part of a terrible accident. More the actions of a guilty person desperate to cover their tracks.

I believe that if OP tried to "cover his tracks" it would likely appear clumsy to experienced investigators because OP is pumped full of adrenaline and not thinking straight… this is probably why we see so many "weird" things in the crime scene :

- Blood spatter or cast-off above headboard
- Blood on watch display case
- Duvet on floor in front of bed with blood on both sides
- Big fan in front of balcony door essentially blocking passage to balcony and right side of bed
- Etc...

What he did do correctly IMO is:

- Substitute his work phone in the bathroom to fool the police
- Hand off the actual phone he used that night to his brother for further tampering
- Wash his hands and discard hit shirt somewhere
- Pick up the air gun and place it in a "normal" position
- Etc...

I so agree about leaving her , He was only interested in saving himself from the fallout and repercussions .
He may try and blame the police for contaminating the crime scene but it is direct testimony from an independent witness that he left Reeva side .
I also think it is unbelievable how many people had access to that crime scene before Reeva was even moved out of the house His brother,sister ,estate manager and daughter as well as Oldwage .

It was literally like Piccadilly Circus !!!

 

[Viper]

it is really scary/sick to think that OP could have seen and aimed at Reeva through the crack in the door he made earlier.... while he was hitting the locked toilet door in a rage at her. ...but it looks that way to me. moo

I believe that it was easy for him to aim in the direction of her no doubt extremely loud blood curdling screams and hit her with the bullets. But if you believe that he needs a visual after the first shot then all he had to do is look under the door to see where she was. I'm not a fan of the theory that he could see her through a crack or hole higher up, only because it he had wanted to see her he would have torn or barged the door much earlier. This whole thing is by his design, everything is just as he wanted it, including having her trapped helplessly and his not seeing her (looking at her and she at him) until she was dead.

 

[lisasalinger]

Me? :angel:

No, seriously though, try it.

Take all the witness statements, follow the gun first cricket bat second idea, insert OP where any voices are mentioned, and this fits exactly with OP's statement.

You may think 'coincidence', but here's the biggie - whatever plan OP is suggested to have dreamed up, he could not possibly have guessed the exact information contained with 5 witness testimony's.

...or could he.

*cue three chord suspense noise*

BBM... including when Mrs. van der Mewre heard an argument from 1:56am-3am?

 

[steveml]

I've not seen a house bathroom door that you can look underneath (it's not something I've tested either).

The only ones I've seen like this are cubicle doors in supermarket toilets or motorway garages etc.

 

[Viper]

I understand what you are saying but to me it doesn't make sense to me for him to have aimed left if he thought he was trying to hit an intruder.
He did not say he was shooting to warn off or scare the intruder he states that he was shooting because he was in fear of his life .Someone genuinely in fear of their life would have aimed all over the place and peppered the door .

This case literally makes my head spin my thoughts are permanently all over the place and working overtime because fundamentally his version just does not sit well with me however hard I try . Lets see what the defence brings who knows things could look differently .JMO

BIB. I agree.