Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Gryffindor]

Also assuming a "bathroom noise" inferred someone was in the toilet cubicle. DEFINITELY.

How about considering he misheard a "noise" ??

 

[shane13]

So obvious he was stalling so he could get things 'cleared up' with Stander first. He didn't want anybody at the house until he was ready. He must have been really peed off when Dr Stipp showed up out of the blue!

Exactly.
And see my post just above now I think,tying this in with the blood on wall and duvet--hypotheticall speaking of course.

 

[Viper]

Viper please look at the photo that I also posted. In fact, I will post them next to one another so it is easier to examine them. There are no hit marks shown on the shower door in the photo I posted. Also, as Sorrell Skye posted, the tabs used on the shower door was also used by the blood expert everywhere that he found blood. This includes on the stairway walls and the floor downstairs.

The picture showing the toilet room door with the arrows in it was taken on March 8. The shower door picture was taken on April 15.

link for both pics
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ius-fatally-shot-girlfriend-article-1.1740454

I did look at your copy of the image, and I do see markers for blood that may be spatter or may be cast-off from the bat or OPs hand.

Now the image I posted is much sharper and I can see twelve (12) marks or something in the image when I magnify it. I am referring to those 12 marks, not the arrows.

 

[Gryffindor]

BBM
I am glad someone else appreciates the crime of removing the 5th phne from the crime scene as I have written about for nearly a year now.

But you have an assumption there that needs elucidation.
A year ago, we had from Botha that Carl and Oldwage werre there before him and going all over the place.

We have to update this to court testimony.
Aimee was there before them, and the Col in charge, van Rensburg, gave her free pass upstairs to take a watch, etc. Was she wearing crime scene shoe protectors? Was she watched every second when up there?

Wo we do not know who took (or was even given? the 5th phone).
But as I posted a few days ago, Nel said he didn't get it back till the 30th of Feb 2013.

Now for the bed and duvet blood.

This is all hypothetical now.
Is it possible that OP plunked her down on the bed, while the duvet was there on top of the bed. This could be say, needing to get a better grip so he needed to rest her there for a moment.

Or it could have been more sinsiter, such as attempting to cover her and carry her out to a car and take the body away.
And of course Nel did not elaborate, and experts said thet did not even test the blood above the headboard.

As I have written, what really happonened may be different from what both sides are alleging in court.

"This one runs deep."

I hear ya. However, it was 3/4 spots of blood on duvet. Otherwise it would've been drenched in her blood, if Reeva had been laid upon it x

 

[TorisMom003]

Why did OP feel the need to run to the sliding doors, open them, run out onto the balcony to scream for help when the bathroom window was open? He was right there beside it while trying to get into the toilet room. All he had to do was put his head out of the window (since there is no screen covering the window) and yell for help.

I suppose this is to eat up some of the extra time that OP and his defense have to account for.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

I did look at your copy of the image, and I do see markers for blood that may be spatter or may be cast-off from the bat or OPs hand.

Now the image I posted is much sharper and I can see twelve (12) marks or something in the image when I magnify it. I am referring to those 12 marks, not the arrows.

But those 12 marks are no where to be seen on the shower door when a photo was taken at a later date.

 

[nastasya]

I appreciate your concerns about things that the press says being accurate, I really do! But these quote from the doctor are very specific, and the lack of blood is obvious - the severed artery in her arm alone would have bled out massive amounts of blood in just minutes. I tend to take the opinion of the doctor that performed the autopsy and the evidence that I can see over the opinion of blood spatter guy, who like batman appears to have trouble interpreting what he is seeing because he has not consulted with others or read others investigation reports and in this case the autopsy report.

But putting that specific issue aside, it will be the DT asserting that Reeva was alive all of that time. My question is why do they need her to still be alive all of that time?

DT needs Reeva alive at that point because otherwise killer would have needed to call police, not ambulance.

Reeva was dead when killer called Netcare.

Netcare call was killer's first act towards making the murder look like an accidental shooting.

Killer on recorded line to Netcare: "I just shot my girlfriend. I thought she was a burglar.... I can't wait for the ambulance... She needs help... I'll drive her to the hospital.... I live 10 minutes away."

This was to buy time for Standers and killer. Otherwise first call would need to be to police, whom they never called.

 

[soozieqtips]

Personally I believe he called Stander because of his daughter being a lawyer. I do not believe that he told Stander to call for an ambulance.

It's very odd, given his 'grief-stricken' state, that he was able to think clearly enough to call people who could help him, but not call anyone who could have helped Reeva. I mean, the whole reason he killed the 'intruder' was to protect himself and Reeva, yet after he shoots her, he does absolutely nothing to protect or help her at all, he immediately starts thinking of how to help himself.

 

[Gryffindor]

Did Aimee cuddle/pat Oscar's arm or touch a bloodied part of his arm before she collected a watch? If so, might that explain the blood on watch case?

 

[TorisMom003]

DT needs Reeva alive at that point because otherwise killer would have needed to call police, not ambulance.

Reeva was dead when killer called Netcare.

Netcare call was killer's first act towards making the murder look like an accidental shooting.

Killer on recorded line to Netcare: "I just shot my girlfriend. I thought she was a burglar.... I can't wait for the ambulance... She needs help... I'll drive her to the hospital.... I live 10 minutes away."

This was to buy time for Standers and killer. Otherwise first call would need to be to police, whom they never called.

Can you please add that this is your opinion? If not, then somewhere down the line it will be said that we know what OP said in that call to Netcare.

Please and thank you!

 

[soozieqtips]

But as I posted a few days ago, Nel said he didn't get it back till the 30th of Feb 2013.

BBM - Shane, where did you get this date from? There is no 30th Feb. Maybe it was a misprint in the press?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

So in Oscar's world of fantasy, how exactly does he explain the 15 minute gap between the gunshots and the bat sounds?

especially when in his affidavit from feb 2013 he describes this period like this

I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

After reading the above, how long do you suppose that took?, 4 minutes at a push?.

I think giving him 4 mins is very generous of you and even being so generous it still leaves a shocking time lapse
I am sometimes amazed by how much I can do when I have something in the microwave for say just two minutes .
He did say after backing out of the bedroom he rushed and then at another point ran back to the bathroom .
If Reeva was indeed shot around 3 he would have been in that cubicle very soon after IMO

 

[shane13]

I hear ya. However, it was 3/4 spots of blood on duvet. Otherwise it would've been drenched in her blood, if Reeva had been laid upon it x

Well thanks for that.

But without so much testing that was not done, there remains many possibilities.

E.g., is it possible that when laid on top of the bed (hypothetically) angles and wounds could be such that arterial spray went up? To the wall?

Also remember this is moments according to Dr Perumal from when Reeva's heart stopped beating alltogether.

 

[Viper]

She wasn't in the left hand corner though, she was directly behind the door standing face on to it .. the ballistics expert testified that. I'm not really sure why these pieces of information that have been testified by experts keep being dismissed? The ballistics man knew what he was talking about and there is no question about him being wrong.

BIB. Because they keep getting major things wrong and confusing people! :smile:

Do you believe batman's conclusion that the gunshot sounds came before the bat sounds, now that you have had an opportunity to weigh his thought process along side other testimony and evidence? Of course not.

And now blood spatter guy looks at blood spatter, cast off, drops, whatever and his testimony lends to Reeva being alive, breathing and heart pumping, all the way until precisely when OP is bringing her down the stairs. But if you weigh his observations and conclusions against the autopsy findings and the horrific wounds that Reeva sustained then many of his opinions are wrong as well.

BTW I have absolutely no issues with bullets guy! :floorlaugh:

 

[shane13]

BBM - Shane, where did you get this date from? There is no 30th Feb. Maybe it was a misprint in the press?

See my posts from a few days ago, where I cited how watching live at the onset of Court proceedings on Tuesday and then seeing those first few minutes excised on the videos--which begin in mid-sentence of a witness, not like all other 1st session videos with everyone standing as Judge walks in.
.
Nel started out by making some stipulation that Roux agreed to. Included was mention of the 5th phone taken from the crime scene (no mention of charging or investigating who committed the crime of removing evidence.)

Nel said when he got it back from DT, and it sounded like he said the 30th of February 2013. Alas, cannot be checked due to the removal of those few minutes. We know from BH that DT had it at least for a week after the crime., If the 30th is corrrect, it is 16 days as I noted a few days ago.

How does one get a full transcript of a day's proceedings?

 

[Cherwell]

Why did OP feel the need to run to the sliding doors, open them, run out onto the balcony to scream for help when the bathroom window was open? He was right there beside it while trying to get into the toilet room. All he had to do was put his head out of the window (since there is no screen covering the window) and yell for help.

I suppose this is to eat up some of the extra time that OP and his defense have to account for.

I don't understand the need to shout for help out of any window, not at gone 3 am. He had the means to call security, which he knew to be 24 hour, and Netcare, ditto.

 

[lisasalinger]

OP locked RS in the cubicle? I've never seen such a lock on the outside of a room door. And given the SA crime stats, why didn't OP have outside motion detector lights installed? Our area in very safe but we have those on the garage and both outer doors. It's very common here.

He did have an alarm system with motion detection technology. Photographs of the security system, outside lamp posts and lighting conditions were all taken and turned in to the Judge with the albums.

 

[steveml]

BBM
I am glad someone else appreciates the crime of removing the 5th phne from the crime scene as I have written about for nearly a year now.

But you have an assumption there that needs elucidation.
A year ago, we had from Botha that Carl and Oldwage werre there before him and going all over the place.

We have to update this to court testimony.
Aimee was there before them, and the Col in charge, van Rensburg, gave her free pass upstairs to take a watch, etc. Was she wearing crime scene shoe protectors? Was she watched every second when up there?

So we do not know who took (or was even given? the 5th phone).
But as I posted a few days ago, Nel said he didn't get it back till the 30th of Feb 2013.

Now for the bed and duvet blood.

This is all hypothetical now.
Is it possible that OP plunked her down on the bed, while the duvet was there on top of the bed. This could be say, needing to get a better grip so he needed to rest her there for a moment.

Or it could have been more sinsiter, such as attempting to cover her and carry her out to a car and take the body away. He had to change plans when others called and were about to be at his home. So he abandoned the duvet covering aspect and picked her up and was soon seen at the top of the stairrs carrying her down.

And of course Nel did not elaborate, and experts said thet did not even test the blood above the headboard.

As I have written, what really happonened may be different from what both sides are alleging in court.

"This one runs deep."

Shane, the phone issue is something I would expect to have been investigated, although nothing has been mentioned in prosecution.

It could be that aside from delay, they may feel there's nothing to be gained from it.

The state's own cellular telephone expert could see no signs of tampering with the phone once it was unlocked, and they also had the help of Apple technicians.

They've been thorough with this phone and may well have need FBI intervention to allow Apple to become involved.

I agree that the nature of how and why the phone wasn't immediately retained in evidence from OP is something that deserves more focus than is being given though.

 

[soozieqtips]

See my posts from a few days ago, where I cited how watching live at the onset of Court proceedings on Tuesday and then seeing those first few minutes excised on the videos--which begin in mid-sentence of a w not like al lother 1st session videos with everyone standing as Judge walks in.
.
Nel started out by making some stipulation that Roux agreed to. Included was mention of the 5th phone taken from the crime scene (no mention of charging or investigating who committed the crime of removing evidence.)

Nel said when he got it back from DT,and it sounded like he said the 30th of February 2013. Alas, cannot be checked due to the removal of those few minutes. We know from BH that DT had it at least for a week after the crime., If the 30th is corrrect, it is 16 days as I noted a few days ago.

How does one get a full transcript of a day's proceedings?

But there are only 28 days in February, unless it's a leap year. Nel must have been confused about the date. If it was 16 days later that he got the phone, it would have been March 2nd. I'll go check if a full transcript of that day is available.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Good morning, Steve :coffeecup:

It will definitely be interesting to see who the Defense calls to the stand, in particular more neighbors.

The van der Mewre account rings true to me because her husband identified OP crying after the last set of bangs. That tells me the sounds were coming from the same location.

Is it the Van der Mewre's that also heard some bangs not shots earlier than the actual shooting timeframe ?