Trial Discussion Thread #17

[steveml]

Not trying to split hairs here, but...

OP wasn't trying to hit the door.

OP's intention was to kill whomever was behind the door, and he succeeded.

I don't dispute that his intention was to kill whomever was behind the door. :smile:









...but he was trying to hit the door, as if he wasn't trying it's likely he'd have missed.

 

[minor4th]

A fraction of a second pause yes, about the same time it would have taken him to reacquire his aim after firing a shot, because the gun pops upwards after each shot. But by him physically moving and reacquiring his aim at the same time and hitting his target successfully 2 or the 3 times I cannot see any argument that he was not trying to shoot at Reeva's voice as being convincing.

How about this:

The shots were reported to be in quick succession by all witnesses and according to OP and the ballistics guy.

The shots are grouped closely together that suggests he was generally aiming at a center of mass of the would-be intruder he believed to be behind the door.

He would have been temporarily deafened after the first shot or had severe ringing in his ears and would likely not hear any sounds coming from the cubicle in order to adjust his aim.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Dr Stipp witnessed Oscar's tattoo when he went round to help at the house. He only said he saw a pale/light figure moving from left to right in the window.

DT and PT have already agreed and established Oscar DIDN'T have his prosthetics on whilst shooting.

Hope that helps x

Thanks ...

I guess the defence stance would be that what the Stipp's heard and saw was the dismantling of the door with the cricket bat hence the light on and since Oscar has maintained that for that he was in his legs then it would have been helpful if Mr. Stipps had been able to determine one way or another, the approximate height of the individual in the window.

 

[minor4th]

I believe the ear witnesses about pre-shots raised voices and screams.

Guess it depends also on whether you believe the shots were at 3-ish or at 3:15-ish.

There was only one witness who heard a single voice before any of the bangs.

In any event, even if one believes that Reeva was screaming during some of the shots, I don't think he would have necessarily heard it because the first gunshot in a small bathroom would have destroyed his hearing temporarily.

 

[Gryffindor]

:chillout: I was replying to a post at the time and didn't see your post until I got back. BTW thank you!

Chill out??? LOL I was merely being kind and informing you I HAD done that and the location of my post to save you searching.

 

[minor4th]

So, another point for discussion - Oscar says he was sleeping on the left side of the bed (closest to the bathroom). Has it been said whether he supposedly retrieved his gun from under his bed on the right side or the left side? And I guess the presumption is he had to remove the gun from the holster since the holster was found flung onto the table.

 

[MeeBee]

So, another point for discussion - Oscar says he was sleeping on the right side of the bed (closest to the bathroom). Has it been said whether he supposedly retrieved his gun from under his bed on the right side or the left side? And I guess the presumption is he had to remove the gun from the holster since the holster was found flung onto the table.

I think it's the left side (by the balcony?).

 

[minor4th]

I think it's the left side (by the balcony?).

I meant left side .. by the bathroom. That's my understanding. Oscar was sleeping on the side closest to the bathroom and near the little couch thing. Reeva was sleeping on the side closest to the balcony and where the ipads were found.

 

[TorisMom003]

So, another point for discussion - Oscar says he was sleeping on the right side of the bed (closest to the bathroom). Has it been said whether he supposedly retrieved his gun from under his bed on the right side or the left side? And I guess the presumption is he had to remove the gun from the holster since the holster was found flung onto the table.

I think it's the left side (by the balcony?).

Then this would cause a problem for him. If he gets the gun from under the bed on the left side, and that is the side that Reeva is sleeping on, how did he not notice that she was not in the bed?

 

[minor4th]

If Steve could get his gingerbread people out and place them on a bed in the diagram, labeled OP and RS that would be helpful

 

[Viper]

How about this:

The shots were reported to be in quick succession by all witnesses and according to OP and the ballistics guy.

The shots are grouped closely together that suggests he was generally aiming at a center of mass of the would-be intruder he believed to be behind the door.

He would have been temporarily deafened after the first shot or had severe ringing in his ears and would likely not hear any sounds coming from the cubicle in order to adjust his aim.

BIB1. I would believe that if he had walked up to the front of the door, stood perpendicular to the door, and fired all four shots from the front of the WC straight to the rear of the WC, either in a grouping or a completely random pattern, I could believe that. But he didn't, he fired at the exact angle necessary for the bullets to hit Reeva, an ACUTE angle.

BIB2. Obviously that speculation, which I actually believed in the past might be accurate, is not accurate, he could hear her screaming.

 

[MeeBee]

I meant left side .. by the bathroom. That's my understanding. Oscar was sleeping on the side closest to the bathroom and near the little couch thing. Reeva was sleeping on the side closest to the balcony and where the ipads were found.

Oh, ok. The side nearest the balcony is what the illustrations have shown but I'm not sure because it's always described as having been the left side and I don't know if they mean looking at the end or on the bed.

ETA: the state has said the left side, I think.

 

[Viper]

Chill out??? LOL I was merely being kind and informing you I HAD done that and the location of my post to save you searching.

I was just playing, light hearted. It was actually meant in jest and I thought you would laugh. I will go and delete that post. Sorry.

 

[MeeBee]

BIB1. I would believe that if he had walked up to the front of the door, stood perpendicular to the door, and fired all four shots from the front of the WC straight to the rear of the WC, either in a grouping or a completely random pattern, I could believe that. But he didn't, he fired at the exact angle necessary for the bullets to hit Reeva, an ACUTE angle.

BIB2. Obviously that speculation, which I actually believed in the past might be accurate, is not accurate, he could hear her screaming.

What changed your mind?

 

[minor4th]

It's not gingerbread men, but this is how I believe they were sleeping according to OP version:

 

[Gryffindor]

I was just playing, light hearted. It was actually meant in jest and I thought you would laugh. I will go and delete that post. Sorry.

Ah that's ok. Sorry, me being a divvy ;-) x

 

[Gbtaketwo]

If Steve could get his gingerbread people out and place them on a bed in the diagram, labeled OP and RS that would be helpful

OP thought Reeva was in the right side of the bed right next to him when he heard the noise by the balcony doors which he had just closed .
The space at this side of the bed is tight .
He had to walk round the bed to the left side closest the bathroom to retrieve his gun which was under the bed.
Reeva would have been within touching distance without him moving at the time when he heard the noise .

 

[minor4th]

OP thought Reeva was in the right side of the bed right next to him when he heard the noise by the balcony doors which he had just closed .
The space at this side of the bed is tight .
He had to walk round the bed to the left side closest the bathroom to retrieve his gun which was under the bed.
Reeva would have been within touching distance without him moving at the time when he heard the noise .

Yes, that is my understanding of his version.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It's not gingerbread men, but this is how I believe they were sleeping according to OP version:

Yes that is the sleeping position . The bed was closer to the doors because there was a bedside table and a sofa at the left hand side .
There is a picture on Lisa's blog showing the fan and the right hand side of the bed if you want to see.

 

[steveml]

It should be made law that we can only refer to left or right side of the bed either facing headboard or facing away from headboard.

...or perhaps new words should be created. It always gets so confusing, when it should be so simple. And we all have the same problems when explaining it :smile: