Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Viper]

Just because OP claims that he did all of those things does not make it true. If it takes 5 seconds to get from the bathroom to the bedroom, then why would it take 7 mins for everything OP says he did?

Sorry but for me the timeline is still off.

Funny thing is though OP is not claiming that he "did all of those things," is he? Fill me in because I am missing something... Is all of that in his plea explanation or not?

 

[Val1]

But he didn't think he could get out safely. That's the whole point

Wasn't that when he was still contending that he was locked in, in his own bedroom, before he changed his story?

 

[minor4th]

Wasn't that when he was still contending that he was locked in, in his own bedroom, before he changed his story?

He didn't change his story for one thing, and for another thing, we are talking about a hypothetical that Noisy Fan posed.

 

[TorisMom003]

Funny thing is though OP is not claiming that he "did all of those things," is he? Fill me in because I am missing something... Is all of that in his plea explanation or not?

From the bail application statement made by OP:


"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding. When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive. I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom."

link for the statement
http://www.scribd.com/doc/210201629/Oscar-Pistorius-Bail-Application-Statement

 

[TorisMom003]

Anyone have a link to the statement from OP that was made during the bail hearing? I can't seem to find it.

 

[Murphys_Law]

IIRC, No evidence to date has been presented that the door key to the toilette was ever on the inside of the toilette.

Nor do we know that a key, be it inside or outside, was attached to that door on an ongoing basis.

Oscar lived alone - why would he need or want a key to his own personal toilette door? Are keys attached to other toilette doors in his house? Having a key hole alone does not require/imply that there must be key in that hole at all times.

The one close up photo of the toilette key that has been made available to the public (although poor quality and taken on March 8 2013) appears to show a green key tag with at least two keys attached … how odd to have a dedicated key for the toilette with 2 or more keys attached.

Moreover, no blood is apparent on the green tag.
If this set of keys was recovered from a blood covered floor, I would have expected at least some blood to have been transferred to the tag. Of course, it is possible that the keys were knocked out of the hole (if that’s how they ended up on the floor ) and fell on to one of the few areas of the floor that were void of blood.

Another household key that has somewhat of a mystery surrounding it, is the key to the safe located in the kitchen. There were two safes in Oscar's house -- one in the bedroom closet (a combination lock type), and one in the kitchen (a keyed lock). Curiously, a locksmith had to be called in by the Pistorius family to open the safe in the kitchen.

Google is our friend…
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=q7MtU66YDKzE8gfRj4GABw&gws_rd=cr#q=oscar+pistorius+locksmith

Where was the kitchen safe key?
Why was such an important key not available?
Was it attached to the toilette key chain which is now in police custody?

Perhaps I missed some important testimony in either the bail hearing or the trial thus far that would shed some light on the mystery surrounding these keys.

Some of my darkest thoughts regarding that evening would be put to rest if anyone can point me to some evidence however weak (excluding Ops affidavit) that:
a) The toilette door key had been inside the toilette room
b) There is only one key attached to the toilette room lock
c) The kitchen safe key has been recovered

Ps. I wish to commend the many thoughtful, logical and scientific posters on Websleuths for their undeterred search for the truth…you know who you are��

Lastly, I wish to thank Juror13 for the most outstanding, accurate and thoroughly detailed compendium of the trial. It’s a masterpiece!

 

[Viper]

From the bail application statement made by OP:


"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding. When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive. I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom."

link for the statement
http://www.scribd.com/doc/210201629/Oscar-Pistorius-Bail-Application-Statement

Ok thanks! So it is basically the same "things" from the bail affidavit, but OP wants to exaggerat that it took 10-17 minutes to do the tasks before he had a moment to call Stander and Netcare to get help for Reeva.

 

[minor4th]

Ok thanks! So it is basically the same "things" from the bail affidavit, but OP wants to exaggerat that it took 10-17 minutes to do the tasks before he had a moment to call Stander and Netcare to get help for Reeva.

Well, about 2 minutes from breaking the door

 

[Viper]

Anyone have a link to the statement from OP that was made during the bail hearing? I can't seem to find it.

It is very late here, but I believe this is it:

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/130219oscar_papers.pdf

 

[Viper]

Well, about 2 minutes from breaking the door

How many minutes did it take OP to break the door?

 

[minor4th]

How many minutes did it take OP to break the door?

Whack, whack, whack ...a few seconds

 

[Rumpole]

Well, about 2 minutes from breaking the door

less than 2 minutes... 2 minute from when he laid the first of a least 3 energetic bat blows... loud enough to be heard at a distance.

It all makes sense.. he bashed down the door, dragged Reeva's body to bathroom and got on phone straight away.

What does not make any sense at all (is impossible) that the second set of sounds were gunshots and OP had to do SOME stuff... such as getting bat, putting on prostheses, bashing door etc.. AS WELL AS the things like dragging Reeva's body and being on phone within seconds... simply makes no sense that there was time for that... and so, as Judge Judy would say... it's not true.

I think EVERYONE agrees that one of the sets of bangs that the Stipps heard WERE the gunshots?

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE that the second set of bangs was the gunshots... it only leaves the first set... whatever time that was (IMO around 3:10)

 

[Viper]

He didn't change his story for one thing, and for another thing, we are talking about a hypothetical that Noisy Fan posed.

But he did say he was "locked" in his bedroom at first, and now that language has been removed, correct?

 

[Val1]

But he did say he was "locked" in his bedroom at first, and now that language has been removed, correct?

Correct, apparently some have trouble understanding that differences between statements, whether it be from witnesses or the accused, open them all up to be examined for their veracity and found, at the judge's discretion in this case, to be either acceptable or not. The same goes for the times testified to, some of them have clear cut cross references to official phone/data records and yet even those are still being denied by a few posters. Boggles my mind.:shakehead:

 

[Viper]

OK, time to say goodnight. Until tomorrow then...

 

[Trooper]

Its been weeks now..this trial in coming up for its 3rd week... people claim to have alternate theories.. its merely the same theory Roux proposes--> everyone is mistaken..

are there any posters with a real alternative???

Rule 1.. it must not even flirt with the idea that Oscar can scream exactly like the woman the witnesses heard.. this isnt even an original poster alternate, its merely what Roux suggested. and was denied.

Rule 2....it dispenses with the ludicrous idea based on some absurd 'demo' doing the rounds of the internet that Gunshots and Cricket bats sound the same....again.. not an original posters theory.. Roux floated it to witnesses, they rejected his hypothesis..


anyone??

 

[minor4th]

But he did say he was "locked" in his bedroom at first, and now that language has been removed, correct?

Not sure, but if it is something that's in his first statement but absent from his second - that's not a change in statements unless his second statement specifically says the bedroom door was not locked. I think you have to consider the two statements together.

 

[minor4th]

Does anyone have an alternate version that is consistent with the evidence, other than Oscar's version? Any at all? The state hasn't come up with one yet - unless they you choose not to believe their own witnesses

 

[Trooper]

Its been weeks now..this trial in coming up for its 3rd week... people claim to have alternate theories.. its merely the same theory Roux proposes--> everyone is mistaken..

are there any posters with a real alternative???

Rule 1.. it must not even flirt with the idea that Oscar can scream exactly like the woman the witnesses heard.. this isnt even an original poster alternate, its merely what Roux suggested. and was denied.

Rule 2....it dispenses with the ludicrous idea based on some absurd 'demo' doing the rounds of the internet that Gunshots and Cricket bats sound the same....again.. not an original posters theory.. Roux floated it to witnesses, they rejected his hypothesis..


anyone??

I forgot Rule 3. any suggestions or theories proposed by Roux, , unless sworn to , affirmed on oath on the witness stand are not to be presented as fact... that is.... any of Oscars wishful thinking proposals , for example , him screaming exactly like the witnesses have sworn on oath to hear, is not to be part of this real alternative.Because Oscar didnt hear it. He cant do it, therefore .

ps. I reject the 'adrenalizing theory', mainly because Rage has exactly the same effect as perception of danger , the cause being adrenalized...

 

[Trooper]

Does anyone have an alternate version that is consistent with the evidence, other than Oscar's version? Any at all? The state hasn't come up with one yet - unless they you choose not to believe their own witnesses

the evidence presented is a woman screaming..


Oscar , and he was closest to this woman screaming., didnt hear a thing..

Oscars version on this particular point is inconsistent, and unbelievable by a reasonable person.

one can only believe Oscars version if one suspends ones rationale on an habitual basis.