Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Gryffindor]

And he didn't "take down" his pantry door with multiple bullets when it was the washing machine behind it!

He investigated first . . .

 

[Rumpole]

Good morning all,

If there were shots fired and then a gap of time passes and then some more shots fired and if the number of shots heard totals 6 or 7 and all the witnesses testify that all were gun shots, and if the physical evidence supports only 4 gun shots along with some cricket bat impacts, is it fair to assume that at least some of the impacts heard must have been the cricket bat?

If yes, can we assume that the gunshots and the cricket bat impacts sounded the same?

Other explanations please ...

Good morning to you... but goodnight from me... just off to bed... ships that pass in the night

Other explanation.... but it's daft and at odds with "Occam's Razor"

Some bangs from unknown source (maybe just slamming doors?)and later set were gun shots.... followed by cricket bat noises that were too quiet to hear.

It seems likely to me that Dr Stipps... with his experience and all was correct when he identified first noises as gun shots. After that he heard screams and was convinced that there was "family murder" and a woman and family in a dire situation. He was then busy phoning to report and busy getting dressed and preparing to assist... I put it to you that he was predisposed to assume any subsequent loud bangs were more gunshots. Prior to this case NOBODY would guess "Cricket bat on toilet door" if they heard loud bangs at 3AM ... they would attribute loud bangs to something from their experience that makes loud bangs ... gunshots. Human perception is more than just input from our senses... we "perceive" based on experience and expectations.

 

[Gryffindor]

Yes the sound of metal being hit to me is an explanation for the first sounds, JMO

Cheers James. And it was right next to the bathroom window . . .

Looking at the metal plate photo, it looks distinctly like it has been hit centrally with a rounded object (baseball bat) All the lines converge from a central round, bashed middle point of plate. Very uniform.

 

[Cherwell]

Has a fingerprint specialist been on the stand?

Watch case, wall being headboard, air rifle, baseball bat, cricket bat and handle, iPads, iPhones, bathroom window, toilet keys, bedroom keys/handle, duvet, outdoor jeans . .

Phew!

I can't see that there's anything to be learned from fingerprints. You would expect to find OP's prints everywhere in his own house, and also Reeva's as a regular guest.

 

[james83]

Good morning to you... but goodnight from me... just off to bed... ships that pass in the night

Other explanation.... but it's daft and at odds with "Occam's Razor"

Some bangs from unknown source (maybe just slamming doors?)and later set were gun shots.... followed by cricket bat noises that were too quiet to hear.

It seems likely to me that Dr Stipps... with his experience and all was correct when he identified first noises as gun shots. After that he heard screams and was convinced that there was "family murder" and a woman and family in a dire situation. He was then busy phoning to report and busy getting dressed and preparing to assist... I put it to you that he was predisposed to assume any subsequent loud bangs were more gunshots. Prior to this case NOBODY would guess "Cricket bat on toilet door" if they heard loud bangs at 3AM ... they would attribute loud bangs to something from their experience that makes loud bangs ... gunshots. Human perception is more than just input from our senses... we "perceive" based on experience and expectations.

Stipp
1st sounds
2nd sounds
Heard man shout for help

Oscar
Gun shots
Shouted for help
Cricket bat

When Oscar shouted for help and Stipp heard him, Stipp had already heard both set's of sounds and Oscar was yet to use the cricket bat.
So Stipp didn't hear the cricket bat.
expecting this to be ignored again.

 

[jay-jay]

You see, I just don't get it.
Why he would be so scared by one little noise coming from the bathroom.
If he had been alone in the house, OK.
But he knew he wasn't.

Can anybody explain his "terror"?

Nope.



.. it would be laughable if it wasn't all so horrific.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Stipp
1st sounds
2nd sounds
Heard man shout for help

Oscar
Gun shots
Shouted for help
Cricket bat

When Oscar shouted for help and Stipp heard him, Stipp had already heard both set's of sounds and Oscar was yet to use the cricket bat.
So Stipp didn't hear the cricket bat.
expecting this to be ignored again.

how many shots in a volley ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... ?

 

[delilah]

My theory only requires one logical explanation. The shots were that quick and devastating that Reeva did not have time to scream.

If it can be proven that in all probability a person will scream when shot four times in quick succession, with one shot to the head certainly causing instant death, my opinion is likely to change.

So, if the head shot was so devastating, how come, according to the 'shots first, bat second "I didn't know it was Reeva" ' theory, RS was still alive a minimum of 9 full minutes later? (From his affidavit - "Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms").

 

[Duchy]

Just a quick thing about the shoulder .. while I remember. I quite often suffer with pain in one or other of my shoulders, and I actually find it more comfortable to sleep on the one which is painful. I'm not sure how to describe it but it's sortof as if it feels better by having something to push against .. if I lay on the other shoulder and then leave the painful one free, then I find the pain gradually increases even further because it has no support. Obviously it depends on the person and how they feel the most comfortable when they've got a bad shoulder .. but .. having a bad shoulder doesn't automatically mean that it would be the other shoulder you feel more comfortable sleeping on, as I said, I've always felt more comfortable sleeping on it.

Compression therapy
:seeya:

 

[delilah]

From OP's affidavit, this is what he says he did between firing the four shots and hitting the toilet door with the bat:

moved backwards out of the bathroom to the bedroom;
realised RS was not in bed and that she could have been in the toilet;
walked back to the bathroom and tried the toilet door;
'rushed' back into the bedroom and onto the balcony;
'screamed' for help;
put on prosthetic legs;
'ran' back into the bathroom and tried to kick the door in;
went back into the bedroom to get the cricket bat;
went back into the bathroom to bash the toilet door.

How does that take a minimum of 7 minutes?

 

[Duchy]

I would like you to read what you have written here a few times and really enter in to what it is you are suggesting.

I agree totally with your appraisal of Mr. Pistorius by the way. I suspect there is a chance that Oscar himself might agree with you.

What is being debated here is whether he is just a reckless fool or something much worse. This should not be a place to mock him.

It should be a place to try to understand his thinking with as little bias as possible and if you can't do that for him or for justice sake, do it for Reeva, a student of the law.

She deserves that and I think she would want that.

Er....'just a reckless fool'......gun licences are not given to reckless fools because they are tested to make sure they know how to be sensible and responsible with guns.

 

[Peliman]

It's also bonker's to suggest that when oscar shouts "get out of my house, reeva call the police" that she wouldn't say anything back, in fact she had her phone with her so why didn't she call the police?, she would have at least had time to make the connection, at this stage Oscar is not even in the bathroom.

I was going to mention this and you got it out there. She would have said something to this shout out.

Oscar, "It's me honey"

I believe she would have, even if she can't speak for herself.

 

[Duchy]

I'm telling ya'll.....his story is carp.....yawn...:facepalm:.....booooooring.

note to OP....never attempt a career in screen writing, please. Thanks.

lease:

:floorlaugh:

 

[DebinGA]

Er....'just a reckless fool'......gun licences are not given to reckless fools because they are tested to make sure they know how to be sensible and responsible with guns.

angry shot through sunroof - 9/12
fired shot in crowded restaurant - 1/13
shot and killed RS - 2/13

No telling how many earlier such incidents occurred but weren't reported. Or how many incidents of an enraged OP yelling at people? ST testified to OP screaming at her, her sister, and several others in her orbit. Roux didn't seem interested in pursuing her claim that OP shouted at the police officer who'd pulled them over for handling his gun. And what about OP with ST in his BMW thinking the Mercedes behind was following them and stopping his car and approaching the other car, gun raised? No wonder Nike cancelled his/their "I'm theBullet in the Chamber" ad campaign.

 

[Peliman]

So, if the head shot was so devastating, how come, according to the 'shots first, bat second "I didn't know it was Reeva" ' theory, RS was still alive a minimum of 9 full minutes later? (From his affidavit - "Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms").

I'm not a medical professional but I beleive one will state that the heart will continue to beat for a few minutes after brain death. I suppose it could be argued she wasn't completely brain dead but I beleive the insult to her brain rendered her speechless and motionless.

 

[steveml]

So, if the head shot was so devastating, how come, according to the 'shots first, bat second "I didn't know it was Reeva" ' theory, RS was still alive a minimum of 9 full minutes later? (From his affidavit - "Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms").

I think the results of the pathologist are interesting, and show us exactly how we do not think clearly and react the expected way after such a distressing situation.

OP was wrong when he thought Reeva was alive. He wasn't lying as that is exactly what he believed at the time. He thought he could revive Reeva. We see this reaction on numerous occasions when somebody is dead and the person nearest to them won't accept the fact, thinking they can bring the person back.

How can I be so sure?

The Pathologist Professor Gert Saayman said :-

A bullet that hit the right side of Reeva's head fractured her skull and entered her brain. Part of the projectile lodged in her brain. She would have lost consciousness and probably didn't breathe more than a few times after sustaining this wound, The wound to the head was incapacitating and probably almost instantly fatal.

Roux claims she died instantly, Gert Saayman claims she possibly made a couple of breaths.

I think the way Gert mentions the words 'probably almost instantly fatal' tells us that there's no perfect answer. There may be further pathological evidence regarding this, however I'm not sure they'll discover much more than what is already known.

Whichever suggestion we wish to accept, the one thing it confirms is that OP may have thought Reeva was still alive when trying to revive her, but she wasn't.

 

[DebinGA]

If OP thought RS was alive when he found her, his actions, which delayed medical help arriving asap, make sense only if he wanted her dead imo.

 

[Gryffindor]

What's most puzzling for me just now is when Oscar RETURNED to bedroom (still dark/same conditions) he INSTANTLY noticed Reeva was absent from the bed.

However, in SAME conditions, when LEAVING the bedroom for the bathroom (to fire) he DIDN'T notice her??

Waaaaat???

 

[04009margaret]

Another instance where OP believed there was an intruder in the middle of the night. No shots fired though. From the Vanity Fair story.........
"A lifelong friend, Azzie has spoken to Pistorius almost daily since the shooting. They own a racehorse together, and Oscar is trying to sell his share to cover legal fees. “I ask him, ‘How are you feeling, Ozzy?,’ and he just says, ‘I’m a broken man, Uncle Mike,’ and every single time he mentions Reeva and her family.” He recounted an incident when his son had slept over at Oscar’s house and made a noise when he got up to get a drink of water in the middle of the night. “Oscar came running out with a gun in his hand,” said Azzie."http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

 

[steveml]

I was going to mention this and you got it out there. She would have said something to this shout out.

Oscar, "It's me honey"

I believe she would have, even if she can't speak for herself.

In SA the only way you'd probably shout 'it's me honey' is if you thought it was some kind of joke. The sensible thing would be to lock the door and not shout or even say anything.

If you're going to speak you may as well shout 'I'm over here', to the intruders.

It could well be that Reeva did exactly the sensible thing, to her detriment.