Trial Discussion Thread #19 - 14.04.07, Day 17

[zwiebel]

Either way, tragically she died from an allergic reaction to medical drugs. It's a very big stretch to see any connection with OP using, or not using, recreational drugs.

I think I was relating it to my own experience of having a family member who had a severe reaction to medical drugs once, and being brought up to run a mile even at the sight of a box of aspirin. Not recommending this attitude, by the way. I've caused myself no end of trouble not taking antibiotics when I should, etc....

 

[jay-jay]

Or she hadn't even got so far as to take down her pants to sit on the loo before hearing OP shouting about an intruder and really did just empty her bladder at death.

Or she did empty her bladder and as she pulled her pants up, before reaching to flush, heard OP screaming about intruder.

Possibilities are endless and sadly, we may never know!

In most of those possibilities though, she would be sideways on to the door (one way or the other) not standing directly behind the door, facing it head on .. when is anyone ever in that position in a toilet cubicle with a layout like the one in OP's house? She may have been facing the door directly like that for a split second only, and highly unlikely he hit her at that actual point in time, she would be more likely sideways on to the door, just about to pull her shorts down/up, or just generally faffing around in there. The fact she was face on to the door indicates to me that she was hiding in there, and possibly even trapped in there (him having locked her in from the outside) and her on the inside hammering on the door to get him to unlock it and let her out.

 

[04009margaret]

No you're quite right, it may not be fact.

That doesn't matter to the PT though, not being any part of the case is good enough.

It involves the fear of intruders. He is supposed to have a paranoid fear of intruders in his home. He even testified today about that fear today. A genuine fear like that would never have an unfixed broken window, it just doesn't ring true. My paranoid relative triple checks everything, then triple checks them again lol. If something is broken or out of place, then nobody in the house is getting any sleep that night.

 

[JuneBug67]

After the glorious recounting of the special deeds of the illustrious Oscar Pistorius, I'll be disappointed if the Vatican doesn't convene a special meeting, during which it is decided that a living person can be granted sainthood.

I do understand the general irritation, but it does provide balance. The prosecution selectively highlighted aspects of Oscar's experience and actions that painted him in a negative light and this simply does so in the other direction. Are any of us in the entirety the worst and dumbest things we ever did? I would say no. This is a predictable tactic, fair game, and not entirely without relevance.

 

[zwiebel]

I am off to check if Dewani's left for South Africa yet.....

 

[Interested Bystander]

Re OP always leaving trousers over his prosthesis. Over the years I have followed his success, I have seen many photos of him where his prostheses are lying around next to his kit. However, I doubt whether he wears trousers/track suit when going to the track or competing in SA. It would be too hot. I suspect his prostheses inside his trousers is going to be his answer to not putting them on when he chased own the "intruder" as it would have taken too long.

We need Samantha Taylor on the stand. She clearly stated he used to put his "legs" beside the bed with the gun either on the floor or on the "cupboard" alongside the bed. I am sure she would know whether they were inside his trousers or not. There are plenty of photos on the internet of his bedroom with his prostheses standing alongside or at the end of his bed - not a pair of trousers in sight.

 

[Viper]

In most of those possibilities though, she would be sideways on to the door (one way or the other) not standing directly behind the door, facing it head on .. when is anyone ever in that position in a toilet cubicle with a layout like the one in OP's house? She may have been facing the door directly like that for a split second only, and highly unlikely he hit her at that actual point in time, she would be more likely sideways on to the door, just about to pull her shorts down/up, or just generally faffing around in there. The fact she was face on to the door indicates to me that she was hiding in there, and possibly even trapped in there (him having locked her in from the outside) and her on the inside hammering on the door to get him to unlock it and let her out.

IIRC the bullet to the hip came at her head on, a straight shot by OP at her through the door. But by the trajectory rods images we can see that the bullet went through the door at an acute angle. So Reeva was turned in the WC squarely facing OP, not squarely facing the door. Make sense?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I am off to check if Dewani's left for South Africa yet.....

Oh Dewani !!!
I am half expecting OP to pull a Dewani the minute his cross exam starts !!

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.startribune.com/world/254141081.html

"Pistorius said his family had been targeted by criminals over the years, citing incidents of house break-ins [police reports?] and carjackings [police reports], and said he had sometimes been followed by unidentified people while driving home. Pistorius also referred to an incident in which he was allegedly assaulted at a social function in late 2012 [police report?] and had to have stitches on the back of his head [medical report?]."

 

[jay-jay]

What I got from this whole thing is OP likes to talk alot on crime on himself and others but his actions tells another story.

At least that is consistent with his statement. He talks alot being so scared that night and yet his actions show he wasn't scared at all.

That is similar to what I was thinking about the tests he had to pass for his firearms licence and how he knew how to 'play the system' and put all the right answers in order to get his licence, but his actions in practice don't actually marry up with his words.

 

[jay-jay]

As she was dressed, it will have been obvious if when she urinated, she did so into the toilet or not. If she did, I don't think it proves anything really. Even if she was taking refuge in the loo, she might have taken the opportunity to have a pee anyway.

That's true .. good point.

 

[MsY]

I am off to check if Dewani's left for South Africa yet.....

lol, bring his back, now!!!!!!!!!!! Pappa wag vir hom.

 

[sorrell skye]

Sounds more like a mothering affectionate gesture, don't know if it's appropriate for a professional relationship. I'm amazed she didn't whisk him away from the prying eyes of the press, he should have been given some privacy.

More likely playing to the press to elicit sympathy.

I think he was playing to the Judge and to the assessors.

Could also be that, but if genuine, he should have privacy for his breakdown

OP is in a Court of Law, answering to the charges of unlawful and intentional killing of a human being.

It is absolutely NOT appropriate for his therapist to stroke his face or to otherwise physically comfort him.

His therapist is not his mother. It is not her role to offer OP motherly affection - in fact, it crosses ethical and professional boundaries for her to do so.

Why, may I ask, should he be provided privacy for his alleged 'breakdown'?

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am off to check if Dewani's left for South Africa yet.....

He is due to leave later this evening.

 

[jay-jay]

Perhaps during the time of him picking her up from the toilet floor and carrying her to the ground floor her pants were pulled up again by him?

No, that's not the case .. it was confirmed by the PT pathologist that there was a bullet hole in her shorts which matched up with the bullet which hit her hip.

Edited to say I 've just noticed this has been answered already upthread!

 

[04009margaret]

I've been meandering around various places watching South Africans discuss the case, during this long break. I was surprised by the confidence I saw expressed in Nel, and his ability to be fierce, by people who seemed to know a lot about him. Now I know why!

The word I hear describing him is integrity. He fought a huge corruption case, I think it may have been against a police commissioner or similar status. During the process of the investigation he was dragged from his home in front of his wife & kids & arrested. If you google it you'll find the story.

 

[screecher]

OK, so you would say no 'presumption of innocence' required to consider the charge of premeditated murder?

Because I certainly would think there should be.

I don't think I've once implied I'm 'perp' friendly. You can be victim friendly and not be disparaging towards anyone. IMO, as ever.

The term "presumption of innocence" IMO, is a court term. As is the term "premeditated murder".

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure this forum and these threads are not even close to being a courthouse.

And just for the record, in the beginning and throughout, thus far, in this case, I did consider 'murder' as opposed to 'premeditated murder'.

~snipped~

...I just thought I'd come out and say it as I occasionally read a pretty vitriolic post that makes me feel uncomfortable, but hey, different strokes for different folks. :seeya:

....

One is able to avail their self of the ignore option.

No, he didn't confess to murdering her. There is a difference between murder and killing (as killing can be lawful).

And there is still presumption of innocence required here, at least of premeditated murder!

Just wanted to clarify a little bit, from the law's standpoint

BBM

A killing may happen while exercising self defense. This was in no way, shape, or form self defense, IMO.

Premeditated murder is committed when one has the intent to snuff the life from another. And that's exactly what he did.

By actually blowing Reeva's brains out. Her brain tissue was found all over the place. He absolutely intended to and committed a premeditated murder. IMO

In my bolded, the word 'here', are you meaning in these threads? From WS's standpoint? Please clarify.

So its okay to bash Nel, the prosecutor, but OP is off limits?
:waitasec:

One might call that a double standard.

Mm hm...regarding the boating accident, OP said didn't drink that day before the tea break, but said he had one drink that he can remember after the tea break.

Nasty whine-a** couldn't keep his lies straight. It's what happens when one tells many, many untruths, falsehoods and puts misinformation out there. The lies come back to bite...the liar.

 

[04009margaret]

Either way, tragically she died from an allergic reaction to medical drugs. It's a very big stretch to see any connection with OP using, or not using, recreational drugs.

That could explain his hesitation. I didn't believe his answer because of that

 

[Viper]

Re OP always leaving trousers over his prosthesis. Over the years I have followed his success, I have seen many photos of him where his prostheses are lying around next to his kit. However, I doubt whether he wears trousers/track suit when going to the track or competing in SA. It would be too hot. I suspect his prostheses inside his trousers is going to be his answer to not putting them on when he chased own the "intruder" as it would have taken too long.

We need Samantha Taylor on the stand. She clearly stated he used to put his "legs" beside the bed with the gun either on the floor or on the "cupboard" alongside the bed. I am sure she would know whether they were inside his trousers or not. There are plenty of photos on the internet of his bedroom with his prostheses standing alongside or at the end of his bed - not a pair of trousers in sight.

He said he took off his jeans/trousers and legs in two ways:
1) Removed both as a set, just slipped out of his pants leaving the pants and prosthetics paired together. Makes sense if he intended to wear the same pants in the morning to get a cup of coffee.
2) Remove them both separately and place the pants on top of the prosthetics.

I'm leaning toward option #2 that evening because the pants were apparently thrown across the room as he grabbed for his legs. And they were most likely on the right side of the bed. IMO. This right side left side thing does't bother me really, but his saying he was on the left side has no advantage to his story that I can see, but there is one or he would not say that.

 

[zwiebel]

Stress. Dewani's still not on the plane for Cape Town and this trial's adjourned because OP was so tired....Both men are so traumatized by their experiences they present themselves as the real victims.

Meanwhile, two lovely women are dead and their families wait and wait, for answers. It's so sad. I've noticed neither of these families have cried out for punishment - they just need to know what happened. They want the truth and feel thay have not been given it, so far.