Trial Discussion Thread #19 - 14.04.07, Day 17

[Melanie]

They are when they've gone all soggy with the milk and a nice layer of crunchy sugar on the top .. well that's how I have mine, anyway :-D

Sorry to get OT (but we're on break), but DH loves his wheatabix (he's a traditional brit). Now you can find them in most major grocery stores -- but you couldn't pay me to eat them! LOL

Carry on....

Mel

 

[james83]

Wow Nel is brutal and i'm loving it.

 

[G.bng]

I recall that Mangena did decide that the hip shot, then arm shot and the head shot was last, but could not decide which corresponding bullet hole C or D was for the head or arm.

Ah, will have to look again because I heard that he was not sure. But then if arm then head, Reeva couldn't have had her right arm on her head when the bullet hit as Mangena showed with his own hands... at least not with the amputation like wound DT's expert (can't remember name, was it another Botha?) just described.

Sky's Alexander Crawford just been on telling of the terrible state OP has been in and she's not seeing how he will be able to testify at this rate.

 

[kaos]

I thought Botha had an arrogance about him and can never understand why 'experts' think they can take on a lawyer whose job is to play around with language and words. Considering Botha has given testimony in "thousands" of trials, I'd have expected him to be more open to the 'possibility' and 'likely' options rather than being completely steadfast and trying to outwit Nel.

 

[zwiebel]

N: Still with the striations - I want to recap. Are you saying they're perfectly symmetrical?

B: I never said that. I said they had a parallel pattern.

Now Nel is showing Reeva's shirt, with perfectly symmetrical weave, suggesting that caused the pattern. I don't want to think about what that white stuff is on it....

 

[zwiebel]

Roux objects that Nel not allowing witness time to answer. Judge agrees, Nel apologies to everyone.

 

[whiterum]

Finally the trial, exciting, I’ve spend forever reading Websleuths this week to keep up with all of you and I’ve written a huge post on the what I think is unlikely from Pistorius version. Seems inappropriate to post it while we are all following along, will post it after the day ends. And then I can edit it from the information what we hear more about now

This expert is having a rough grilling from Nel, I don’t understand what a pathologist is doing talking about ballistics? What is Roux strategy here, doesn’t making sense to put them on the stand, talking about another area of field.

I wish Pistorius would stop crying. It’s like he’s either trying to pull focus to himself because it always has to be about his emotions not what’s being said by experts – or he can’t control his emotions, not a great thing to reveal if the prosecution wants us to see that he’s emotionally unstable enough to get angry and fire at his girlfriend. Possibly would get a better psychologist for him too.

IMO, this is why some pathology evidence was put on before OP's because with the retching , holding his head and all the drama created ,it can be claimed that he will be unfit to take the stand at this time.

 

[zwiebel]

N: She fell on a mag rack with a shirt on, but you're saying it caused the striations?

B is losing his cool, saying he has never heard OP's version etc. Nel has riled him. He insists mark was caused by contact with rack, not shirt. He thinks. Maybe.

 

[MeeBee]

N: Still with the striations - I want to recap. Are you saying they're perfectly symmetrical?

B: I never said that. I said they had a parallel pattern.

Now Nel is showing Reeva's shirt, with perfectly symmetrical weave, suggesting that caused the pattern. I don't want to think about what that white stuff is on it....

The shirt makes a little more sense. Bullets marking from being fired don't really have perfectly patterned striations like that and...not sure now that can be from the magazine rack. Hopefully we can see it up close to if it has a pattern like that. It's still a bit of a mystery to me.

 

[Viper]

Oh no... Nel is going after him on the gastric thing, his "specialty." Watch for him to admit that Saayman was right in 3, 2, 1...

 

[zwiebel]

Nel has just said thousands of operations take place everyday relying on the fact that in 4-6hrs, gastric emptying has happened. Patient safety based on it. B concedes this is the case.

 

[MeeBee]

Winding down testimony I feel. Seriously crossing my fingers OP goes today.

 

[DebinGA]

Nel got him to admit that he threw RPs report away, he did not consider it when forming his opinions. So whatever is in that report is damning to OP. RP won't be called by the DT.

Perumal is currently advising/attending the trial of a principal charged with raping student/s taking place in another part of SA at the moment.

 

[zwiebel]

Now Nel's on to Knight's pathology book, which B cited as dismissing gastric emptying in relation to ascertaining time of death.......

"Even if one accepts gastric transit time of 4-6 hrs, accepting it indicates time of death can only be made if time of death was sudden.."

B then conceded Reeva's death was indeed, sudden.

 

[Really?]

OP is watching his money going down the drain

 

[patCee]

Nel has just said thousands of operations take place everyday relying on the fact that in 4-6hrs, gastric emptying has happened. Patient safety based on it. B concedes this is the case.

This information, agreed by Botha, is defining for the PT, in my opinion, with regards to the time of death. A huge score for PT.

 

[anagrammy]

N: Still with the striations - I want to recap. Are you saying they're perfectly symmetrical?

B: I never said that. I said they had a parallel pattern.

Now Nel is showing Reeva's shirt, with perfectly symmetrical weave, suggesting that caused the pattern. I don't want to think about what that white stuff is on it....

People who experience sudden severe pain often projectile vomit. It would be completely understandable that Reeva vomited after being hit in the hip with that HORRENDOUS injury. This would also explain the small amount of food left in her stomach.

 

[zwiebel]

Knight says in a normal person, 4 hours ensures gastric emptying and 6 hours almost certainly so. B agrees this is correct!

I dunno how Nel's managed to make gastric empttying seem a certain science again, but he has.

 

[steveml]

Why is it that experts seem unable to just say 'I don't know'? That's all a hypothetical is, in other words not proven. It must be worth lots of money to put themselves in a position where they feel their knowledge is uncertain, and in public.

That's very true. I find there's a reluctance with experts and witnesses in general. It's almost as if people don't want to say the words 'I don't know'.
It would be so much easier, otherwise you may as well just say 'I'm guessing'.

The lawyer usually follows that with 'In all probability...'. All you need to do is keep saying you don't know.
It's usually better than allowing the lawyer to tie you up in knots and agree to things that you don't believe to be true.

 

[Dr Mattus]

I thought Botha had an arrogance about him and can never understand why 'experts' think they can take on a lawyer whose job is to play around with language and words.

Jan is a professor of pathology with over 25,000 post mortems under the belt. I think you can take the patronising quotation marks away.