Trial Discussion Thread #20 - 14.04.08, Day 18

[jay-jay]

This trial is about him. Of course his testimony is going to be about him and his actions and his beliefs and perceptions. That's why we're having this trial. It's not a memorial or tribute to Reeva; there's going to be no evidence about whether Reeva deserved to die because everyone agrees she didn't!

No, but she does deserve to have the right verdict brought against him .. and if she did in fact die in a DV incident, then it would be an absolute travesty for her and her memory, and her family and friends, if it just goes down that he killed her by accident. That's why the absolute truth must be reached .. for her .. couldn't care less about him (but if the truth is found for her, then it follows that he will receive the correct sentence according to that truth, so you needn't worry about that).

 

[TrueDetective]

What troubles me about his emotional state is that he seems to have moved on in his normal life. RS death is now 14th months ago. I would expect him to be upset but not out of control after this length of time. It just doesn't ring true when one reads he is out partying, holidaying with friends, has a new girlfriend, seen joking with he lawyers at lunch in the last few days.

Clearly.

His 'breakdowns' have been timed to perfection.
This is why I cannot believe so many people are falling for it.
His whole defence depends on showing regret and remorse at what was a mistaken identity / self-defence killing. For him to stand any chance of a reduced sentence the requirement from him for the DT is for him to be over whelmed with grief and to stick to the story.

However, he is in real danger of pushing the grief too far as the judge should/will not accept it and he is already changing/adding to the story in ways that will surely trip him up if he ever gets to x-exam.

 

[Gryffindor]

There is the testimony of several reputable professional people who heard an altercation and then gun shots.

What if Reeva started the "argument" that 1 witness said were male and female voices?

 

[jay-jay]

I think his emotion lends a great deal of credibility to his account. There's simply no evidence that he intended to kill Reeva or flew into a rage at 3:00 a.m. and killed Reeva as a result.

I know that many really want his story to be false; they want him to be guilty; they don't want this to be a tragic and irreparable accident. But the evidence is just not there.

Oscar's testimony seemed truthful.

The evidence is just not there to prove what he is saying is true, either.

The same could be said for some posters here who really want the story to be true; they want him to be innocent of knowingly killing her; they don't want this to be a domestic violence case. The evidence is just not there. Apparently.

 

[soozieqtips]

1 witness alleged arguing.

Although arguing and shots aren't conclusive proof / evidencefor premeditated murder . . .

Did the other witnesses imagine a woman screaming? Did Dr Stipp imagine a man and woman's voice intermingled? Did everyone get everything wrong and only OP's account is trustworthy? Nel clearly thinks there is evidence that OP knew who he was shooting at, and saying there is 'no evidence' doesn't make it true. I think he knows his job better than we do.

 

[jay-jay]

Because it didn't happen

What do you base that on?

 

[Forensics]

Would love clarification on this one way or another .
But it is quite odd to think he has a fear of intruders so strong he could shoot through a door but be so lax about security .
I live in the UK where we don't have so much gun crime but we do not leave ladders about ,we have an alarm and a panic button ,we board up broken windows immediately , we do not allow our external sensors to be out of action or leave our bedroom door lock broken .

Considering his income and the fact that he has staff it is incredible that he would not have things repaired yet pays for a lot more guns . I think the truth is he felt safe with a gun in his hand so now it is all down to whether he can convince the judge it was reasonable for him with his disability to shoot through the door .

These were exactly my thoughts as well, for someone with is paranoid regarding his personal safety, he would have overlooked the security alarm not functioning (although in my experience the removal of one or more sensors does not disable the rest of the system) and furthermore, not invested in the panic button. Although an expense he could well have afforded it.

I also believe he had an obsession with guns and shooting as evidenced by the other incidents and his large order of additional firearms that was placed before the death of Reeva.

 

[jay-jay]

Nel thinks differently.

Yes, and I seriously do not think they would be pursuing the case on this basis if they did not think they had enough evidence to win it.

 

[curiousjo]

for those who missed his wailing tantrum:

https://www.youtube.com/user/sabcdigitalnews
__________________

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Okay, so I just listened to the ending of this tape where OP breaks down crying... he does NOT cry like a girl....

 

[jay-jay]

I'm absolutely crushed for him and Reeva. I find the thought of each morning's trial horrific, so good only knows how he feels.

I too think it's destroyed him. He's a mess :-(

What's that phrase?
"Truth is stranger than fiction".

T'is indeed applicable here IMO :-(

I hate that phraseology .. it is something that my ex abuser used to say to me in order to try and confuse me about what it true and what is not true. I go by things I've learned about people's behaviour now, and by what I've learned about abusive relationships and the similarities/types of behaviours that are typically displayed.

 

[Gryffindor]

Did the other witnesses imagine a woman screaming? Did Dr Stipp imagine a man and woman's voice intermingled? Did everyone get everything wrong and only OP's account is trustworthy? Nel clearly thinks there is evidence that OP knew who he was shooting at, and saying there is 'no evidence' doesn't make it true. I think he knows his job better than we do.

Nel still has to cross examine. Though he hasn't presented hard evidence thus far for premeditated. Not at all.

And the screaming I mentioned a few pages back. If 500 witnesses testified to female screams, it's irrelevant, as Oscar DIDN'T hear anything, thus didn't know it was Reeva behind door. He's the one who has to hear screaming.

How does anyone PROVE Oscar DID hear her screaming? Now that's tricky . . .

 

[curiousjo]

Only 1.

Estelle Van der Merwe.

Awoke an hour before shooting to hear people talking in loud voices as if arguing.

Unable to say which direction or which house this was coming from.

The rest did not hear an altercation, they heard screaming/shouting/calls for help, but none of them claimed to hear any argument or fight.

Actually 3! The doctor and his wife heard 2 distinct voices over lapping- a woman screaming and a low pitched male yelling.
=====

Nel still has to cross examine. ...How does anyone PROVE Oscar DID hear her screaming? Now that's tricky . . .

Nel is prooving that OP heard RS screaming --- when he shows that the 1st shot hit her hip - RV would have screamed, then OP changed the position of the gun when he heard RV fall/scream ...and shots #2-4 hitting her in the shoulder/chest and head.

 

[lisasalinger]

So not many hearts or minds have been changed by Oscar's testimony. I suspect that those who already found him guilty would be smearing him no matter how he came across on the stand.

If he was robotic and unemotional he would be said to be uncaring and uninterested. He shows a great deal of emotion and it's labeled a self serving act. There's no way for him to be seen as anything other than GUILTY by those who have pre-judged him so - irrespective of the facts and evidence. IMO

I thought his testimony gave more insight into his thinking that night and the sorrow he feels about his actions. One thing that came across clearly in his testimony is that it was fear that motivated him to shoot and not bravado.

All his crying and emotion will not alter the facts or move him from guilty to not guilty - I can't imagine it will have any impact on the verdict other than it gives the judge something by which to judge his credibility. If she believes he is genuine, she will unlikely convict him of premeditated murder .. He is not behaving like a man who intended to kill his girlfriend. But I think the state failed to present a convincing case for premeditated murder anyway.

His remorse and strong emotion will certainly play a role in sentencing if he is found guilty of culpable homicide.

BBM

This may be true for some (the part I bolded) but for the most part, I think the majority of us are just using our own perceptions and life experiences to gauge the authenticity of the witnesses, including Oscar... especially Oscar. Why should we go easy on him? He is there to be judged.

I agree that however he comes across, weepy or strong, he pretty much can't win as far as his emotions are concerned. That's why somebody's emotional state should not be used as a sole factor. Maybe a partial factor, but not that alone. We should be focusing on his words, his consistency and his authenticity. Mixed with our own common sense and life experiences. This should be true of our judgement of all witnesses.

I've seen Samantha Taylor strongly judged simply because she's an ex-girlfriend, and not necessarily for any other reason. I've also seen Stipp and Burger criticized for their strong demeanor and attitudes on the stand. I'm not saying this is wrong. To the contrary... we all have our own reasons for either believing or disbelieving witnesses and we are entitled to them. That is part of the trial process.

I don't mind people picking apart every sentence that Oscar says and weighing it. We should be doing that.

 

[Gryffindor]

I hate that phraseology .. it is something that my ex abuser used to say to me in order to try and confuse me about what it true and what is not true. I go by things I've learned about people's behaviour now, and by what I've learned about abusive relationships and the similarities/types of behaviours that are typically displayed.

I like the phrase and mostly it's true. My abuser wasn't intelligent enough to have even heard of the phrase.

 

[luvmygarden]

Clearly.

His 'breakdowns' have been timed to perfection.
This is why I cannot believe so many people are falling for it.
His whole defence depends on showing regret and remorse at what was a mistaken identity / self-defence killing. For him to stand any chance of a reduced sentence the requirement from him for the DT is for him to be over whelmed with grief and to stick to the story.

However, he is in real danger of pushing the grief too far as the judge should/will not accept it and he is already changing/adding to the story in ways that will surely trip him up if he ever gets to x-exam.

Maybe that's why the defense had OP dress instead of doing further demonstrations on his stumps and legs. That was definitely looking for sympathy for the defendant.

 

[soozieqtips]

Nel still has to cross examine. Though he hasn't presented hard evidence thus far for premeditated. Not at all.

And the screaming I mentioned a few pages back. If 500 witnesses testified to female screams, it's irrelevant, as Oscar DIDN'T hear anything, thus didn't know it was Reeva behind door. He's the one who has to hear screaming.

How does anyone PROVE Oscar DID hear her screaming? Now that's tricky . . .

Do you seriously think OP is going to admit he heard screaming? Not in a million years. He CAN'T admit to hearing it because his goose would be well and truly cooked. The one thing you can absolutely guarantee is that he will never admit he heard Reeva screaming. How could he?? He'd be looking at definite :jail:

 

[jay-jay]

So, she wasn't breathing and he sat with her for an indeterminate length of time, but he says he called Netcare and was planning to drive her to the hospital and when Dr Stipp arrived he had his fingers in Reeva's mouth in an attempt to revive her. Really?

Yeah, really .. 'mazing, innit .. :facepalm:

 

[Viper]

What do you base that on?

OPs words alone. That is all the other side has to argue with, a singular consideration of OPs words alone, and his words are deemed to be facts.

Oh, and all of the witnesses are lying, the investigators contaminated the crime scene, the experts have been corrupted and/or bribed, the judge loves OPs fairy tale because he is a national hero and an amputee that found fame so she / they will find a way around SA Law and convict OP of Culpable Homicide with a suspended sentence... I'm leaving something out, but you get the picture. Rubbish.

 

[atthelake]

Sorry I'm just coming in here out of the blue, as first seeing the bedroom/bathroom layout today. I haven't really followed the trial...

But doesn't it seem odd that when he was so frightened that someone was in the bathroom, that he was brave enough, without his legs, to go into the hall of the bathroom and then come into the inner area to shoot at the door? I mean what if the alleged burglerer were already in the area where the bathtub was? Then he would be in closed-in combat with that person, with no legs. That just seems odd to me. He had to go in through the little open hall, into the bathroom area to shoot at the door.

Me, I would have just waited to see if someone came out that entry and started shooting away. No way I'd go in there.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the layout of the bathroom and/the bedroom.

:welcome6: Great first post. Look forward to you posting more. Agree, logically, with your assessment. Further away if he stayed in the bedroom if he was determined to *confront* - which is what he indeed did. Having 10 feet between him and the supposed *burglar* and confined in a 6" hall way that was perhaps 3" wide (these are all IMHO measurements folks)... would have been the most logical way to protect his *beloved*

 

[Insp.Dots]

I am very sorry for your loss. It must have been horrendous.

I think OP's situation is very different. It is nearly 14 months post Reeva's death and it seems he has moved on, apart from when he is in court that is. He has been seen out nightclubbing/partying, has a new girlfriend, is having fun holidaying with friends, all reported in the press.

Not everything in the press is true!