Trial Discussion Thread #20 - 14.04.08, Day 18

[jay-jay]

I like the phrase and mostly it's true. My abuser wasn't intelligent enough to have even heard of the phrase.

I wouldn't say it mostly was .. people tend to follow certain behaviours, and that's why experts are able to categorise certain mental illnesses .. or even, say, things like crowd control where they can actually predict how people are going to behave. It only seems like truth is stranger than fiction when you don't know the full details of something, once you do, then it all makes perfect sense.

 

[soozieqtips]

TrueDetective - your re-enactment of the crime was utterly brilliant.

I wish Nel could read this out in court

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

 

[Gryffindor]

Kind of you to offer a clarification for the FM. It seems a simple mistake between identifying the shoulder and the upper right arm.

BTW The DT expert, the Professor, described the injury to Reeva's upper right arm as an amputation; there was very little tissue left to keep the arm to connected to her body.

I didn't mention the nature of injuries or say the arm at the elbow wasn't almost detached. I was discussing the location of wounds.

 

[curiousjo]

Please read the details before replying

The suggestion was altercation and then gunshots. There was 1 witness.

i.e. rowing/arguing and then gunshots - 1 witness

The Stipps heard gunshots and then screaming. (they did not hear any voices first).

===
The Stripps were awakened to "gun shot" sounds, then woman screaming and man yelling, then a 2nd round of "gun shot" sounds, then the woman stopped screaming.

The other neighbor never heard the 1st set of "gun shot" sounds... So, she heard arguing then 2nd round of "gun shot" sounds....

So they both heard the argument/screaming, then 2nd round of "gun shot" sounds.

 

[Gryffindor]

I wouldn't say it mostly was .. people tend to follow certain behaviours, and that's why experts are able to categorise certain mental illnesses .. or even, say, things like crowd control where they can actually predict how people are going to behave. It only seems like truth is stranger than fiction when you don't know the full details of something, once you do, then it all makes perfect sense.

Ah no. No other reason I used the phrase other than: falling over oneself to make bizarre, weird things fit with lack of evidence (State) - fiction

What is known so far from all evidence (though it initially sounds incredulous) (Oscar's) - truth

That was all.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Not everything in the press is true!

Well, not everything OP has been saying is true, either.

 

[Insp.Dots]

So he hasn't been seen joking with his lawyers over lunch, he hasn't been on holidays and he doesn't have a new girlfriend?

So what was the joke? I saw a photo of him smiling? But, not sure there is any proven link between murder and smiles? As for the girlfriend....do you know this as fact? He apparently went to Mozambique with his family over Christmas, I expect they thought as it's quite possible he won't be available to holiday this Xmas it was a good idea.

Isn't it good that it IS ONLY a Judge who will come to a verdict on this and base that on FACTS only.

Can you imagine a world where a tabloid newspaper is how we deal with crime suspects? Text 2222 for GUILTY Text 4444 for innocent.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"His 'breakdowns' have been timed to perfection.
This is why I cannot believe so many people are falling for it.
His whole defence depends on showing regret and remorse at what was a mistaken identity / self-defence killing. For him to stand any chance of a reduced sentence the requirement from him for the DT is for him to be over whelmed with grief and to stick to the story.

However, he is in real danger of pushing the grief too far as the judge should/will not accept it and he is already changing/adding to the story in ways that will surely trip him up if he ever gets to x-exam."


Yep. ^^^^^

Consider the term "histrionic". Then add "Drama King".

Anyone here ever been mom or grandma (or dad or gandpa) to a little "Drama Queen" or "Drama King"? These little ones - and if they grow up unchecked, not-so-little ones - are indeed sensitive souls. Often they will howl - in outrage, in frustration, in anger, in disappointment, in whatever. Once they've finely honed their act, after the initial, genuine howl there comes the increasingly loud anguished and sustained howls. And this can go on and on. Sometimes the pitch and the intensity of the howls changes.

One of my grandsons did this as a young child. After a while, sometimes I would howl back at him. Then we would exchange howls. Eventually, he would end up laughing at me.

I don't know how common it is for this behavior to be sustained into adulthood. I know that my grandson who demonstrated it gave it up at around 7 or so.

Do I think Oscar Pitsorius is an adult "Drama King"? Oh yes I do.

Do I think the Judge has his number? Oh yes I do.

I think she is going to allow him to sit there and blubber and cry and howl and puke into his green bucket. But I'd bet this trial is going to proceed.

----------------------------

Did I hear Oscar say today that after shooting through the door that he then returned to the bedroom with the gun still in his hand? Then what? Picked up cricket bat? Now both hands are full? Back into bathroom to beat at toilet door with bat? Down hallway and into bathroom with gun in one hand and cricket bat in the other? Or both gun and bat in one hand so other hand can be used to hold onto wall due to his "bad balance" when on stumps?

Hmmmmmmm....

------------------------------

Relisten to today's (obviously practiced) narrative. Sometimes he is talking along and then he realizes he has forgotten some important point. He pauses - very, very slightly - in his narrative and quickly inserts the needed information. Information that seems to always be to his advantage.

Oscar does this at various times throughout his narrative. Listen for it and you will hear it. It is fairly blatant.
-------------------

I am not going to say that I don't think Oscar is all screwed up. I am also not going to say that I don't think he is cognizant of the enormity of what he has done.

I think he still thinks he can worm his way out of this. Using skills he developed as a young child. There are secondary gains associated with having an obvious handicap. Oscar has IMO learned to play on these to the hilt. And I think that HE thinks he is genuinely entitled to a "get out of jail free card" for this poor woman's murder.

I don't agree with that. I think jail time is in order for Oscar.

 

[Gryffindor]

What's the point in going over the evidence when not all of us agree on what the evidence is. Let's just say that men kill their partners in a rage all the time. It's nothing new. Just because the suspect is a celebrity sportsman doesn't mean he's immune to the same feelings of rage, jealousy, insecurity and foul temper that other mere mortals are.

Not what everyone else thinks. We aren't obliged to agree. Based on what YOU know as fact/evidence thus far, what do you believe made him jealous, angry etc that the State had presented, which would make his killing of Reeva intentional?

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks. So what do you reckon caused him to intentionally shoot her? What upset him enough to actually kill her? Going by evidence so far.

Remember the abusive relationship you told us you were in, where you had to hide in the toilet? Think of some of the arguments you would've had with your partner which led to those types of fights .. it would've been something like that, something which probably progressed throughout the evening from something which seems fairly trivial to start off with, and then spirals and spirals out of control. The killing bit only happens because of seeing red because the argument reaches a certain point, not because of the specific things that started the argument .. not sure why I'm explaining this to you, as you will, or should, already know what I mean if you've been in an abusive/violent relationship yourself. Anything can spark off an all night row, and there are plenty of things on the table already .. the lack of a Valentine's gift, the problems earlier on in the day where Reeva sent that message saying about him maybe needing to be with family that evening because of some 'hurdle', there may have been an issue with the watching (whoever it was who was doing it), it may have been probs in bed, it may have been something else we don't know about, god the list could be endless!

 

[soozieqtips]

Isn't it good that it IS ONLY a Judge who will come to a verdict on this and base that on FACTS only.

~snipped~

Yes it's good that the Judge will use her logical reasoning to decide what's TRUE and what's plain FICTION. :seeya:

 

[Gryffindor]

NB. There is a humungous difference between a random assertion of "Reeva didn't scream" and "Oscar didn't hear Reeva scream"

Thank you

 

[Viper]

I didn't mention the nature of injuries or say the arm at the elbow wasn't almost detached. I was discussing the location of wounds.

Yes, I know that. That was additional information that I provided; I began that sentence with BTW, which means "by the way." And BTW, the injury to her right arm did not enter or exit her elbow, those wounds were approximate to her mid humeras.

 

[Feynman]

I feel bad for him. He is clearly suffering.

That doesn't diminish the sorrow I feel for Reeva ...these are not mutually exclusive.

To tell you the truth, I couldn't even listen yesterday, starting with the apology. I turned the TV off. OP is obviously a broken, distraught, shattered man. This is all so very sad - for everyone. This doesn't mean I accept the DT's version of events. It's just my reaction to the emotion that is coming out of the accused from a very deep place.

 

[Gryffindor]

Remember the abusive relationship you told us you were in, where you had to hide in the toilet? Think of some of the arguments you would've had with your partner which led to those types of fights .. it would've been something like that, something which probably progressed throughout the evening from something which seems fairly trivial to start off with, and then spirals and spirals out of control. The killing bit only happens because of seeing red because the argument reaches a certain point, not because of the specific things that started the argument .. not sure why I'm explaining this to you, as you will, or should, already know what I mean if you've been in an abusive/violent relationship yourself. Anything can spark off an all night row, and there are plenty of things on the table already .. the lack of a Valentine's gift, the problems earlier on in the day where Reeva sent that message saying about him maybe needing to be with family that evening because of some 'hurdle', there may have been an issue with the watching (whoever it was who was doing it), it may have been probs in bed, it may have been something else we don't know about, god the list could be endless!

Thanks Jay Jay. You could've stopped at sentence 2. There were no arguments in my instance. None. At all. It was basically him just going mental , physically violent and terrorising about nothing, anything, whatever and whenever it suited him!!

Me, in fear of my life, not knowing what the hell was going on or when. He just went.

Christ, argue?? Engage IN IT? Even once??

I'd be dead.

 

[steveml]

===
The Stripps were awakened to "gun shot" sounds, then woman screaming and man yelling, then a 2nd round of "gun shot" sounds, then the woman stopped screaming.

The other neighbor never heard the 1st set of "gun shot" sounds... So, she heard arguing then 2nd round of "gun shot" sounds....

So they both heard the argument/screaming, then 2nd round of "gun shot" sounds.

Nope, sorry,

You can't have a one size fits all policy with witness statements. You either have to accept that the witnesses know what blood-curdling terrified screaming sounds like, or you don't. You can't just suggest it was either that or arguing. The two are not remotely alike.

If so, I'll see your 'terrified blood-curdling screaming, that sounds like an argument', and I'll raise you my 'terrified man screaming that sounds like a terrified woman screaming.'

:smile:

 

[Gryffindor]

Yes, I know that. That was additional information that I provided; I began that sentence with BTW, which means "by the way." And BTW, the injury to her right arm did not enter or exit her elbow, those wounds were approximate to her mid humeras.

It went in her arm and came out the other side.

 

[Viper]

Ah no. No other reason I used the phrase other than: falling over oneself to make bizarre, weird things fit with lack of evidence (State) - fiction

What is known so far from all evidence (though it initially sounds incredulous) (Oscar's) - truth

That was all.

BIB. Thank you for that. It is exactly what I was referring to in a previous post, so very satisfying to get an absolute confirmation, and in just minutes at that.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Well, not everything OP has been saying is true, either.

I agree :moo:

 

[beach]

Okay guys, it's getting too personal in here. Respect the fact that people are going to have differing opinions. Be willing to "agree to disagree" and move on when it's time.