Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[lisasalinger]

I've checked Juror13/lisa's blog and this seems to confirm what you've said there that OP went upstairs *before* the paramedics arrived ..

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/



.. so it does appear that OP *still* hasn't answered our question about what he was doing when he trotted off upstairs almost immediately after Dr Stipp examining Reeva, and before the ambulance arrived.

Yep, he has not.

What he did say was the paramedic asked him for Reeva's identification and that was when he went upstairs. He specifically testified "I didn't go through her purse", I just gave it to Clarice who was upstairs standing outside his bedroom. Why did he need to throw that tidbit in - didn't go through her purse? And Clarice should have known better as a lawyer not to CONTAMINATE the scene by going upstairs.

Another thing that quite honestly has me freaked out is the plastic bags, rope and tape. Roux asks him why were plastic bags there. Of course, Oscar can't remember who got them but they were using them to stop the bleeding.

Do you know anybody who uses plastic bags to stop bleeding? ANYTHING would be better than plastic bags to stop bleeding.

He also said that Clarice told him to get rope and/or tape so she could stop the bleeding on the arm.

He will not admit to getting the bags and apparently rope and/or tape that we haven't seen, but Roux felt necessary to address. There is that selective amnesia and blame again... It was all Clarice.

WTF. Again... jaw on the floor... totally freaked out... HOW DOES ANYBODY BELIEVE HIM AT THIS POINT?? This story gets worse and worse.

 

[BritsKate]

Thanks for reply.

Why not just finish with her then? Bit extreme to kill?

I don't for a moment believe he sat down, with pen and paper in hand, plotting her demise. I believe they argued, she ran to the toilet, told him she was going to call the police or that she was done with him...

And he had to stop her.

If Oscar isn't abusive then he at least shows some worrying coincidences very common to abusive personalities. I honestly believe Reeva was starting to notice those concerning characteristics for herself that night. Abusive or overly-controlling types tend to view the people they're involved with as objects, not human beings. And to defy or embarrass them, on any level, is to also provoke them. I've talked about one of my ex's rages before in another case - he was literally bleeding profusely, had broken his hand in several areas, and still kept smashing furniture. When they see red, really see red, almost nothing will stop them. They aren't thinking through the consequences of their actions - they aren't even aware of either their own pain or fear of those around them. And, in my experience, abusive personalities have no problem leaving of their own accord but can become extremely volatile and dangerous when being left.

(I fully concede I could well be wrong and my own history could be playing into how I see this case. I've had a door beaten down to get to me and I had a gun pulled on me twice by my ex so I can definitely attest to an emotional connection to this particular case.) So just FWIW.

 

[Gryffindor]

It does sound that way. With fully automatic you only squeeze the trigger once and all the bullets fire one after the other.

There's no subtlety in the way guns operate I'm afraid.

Holy ****! :O

 

[IfIMay]

10 April this happened:

Nel: (photograph of the fan in the door on screen) If you now look at the photograph in terms of what shouldn't be there...What else is wrong there?

Long pause of about fifteen seconds.

OP: Well the fan couldn't have possibly been there, my Lady, because it's in the way of the doors opening.

Nel: Indeed. Indeed.

OP: I would have run out on to the balcony where I shouted for help and that fan would have been in the way so...

Nel: It never happened.

OP: So it must have been moved, my Lady.

Nel: It never happened. Because now you see it. That fan, in the position where it is there would have blocked you, would have made it difficult for you to close that door.

OP: (Very calm.) My Lady, the curtains as well on the left. I wouldn't have had time to move all the way along to open the curtains that much.

Nel: Yes.

OP: If I was in a hurry I would have just run where I did (slight hesitation) open the door, run out on to the balcony, I wouldn't have drawn the curtain all the way far to the left hand side.

Nel: You see, because, Mr. Pistorius, your version is a lie. You never closed that curtain, Mr. Pistorius, in the first instance. That's why you have to come up with things. Because now we have to look for a policeman that'll do the following: That moved the duvet to the carpet. That moved the fan back. That moved the curtain more open. Those three things, am I right?

OP: That's correct, My Lady.

Nel then goes on to say that this was never put to either Van Rensburg or Van Staden that these things were moved and that's strange because if they had moved it, they would in fact have been interfering in OP's defense.

I find his phrasing frustrating. " I would have" not "I ran" out there. Feels very made up. He's lying. It's so obvious in his choice of words. If he had actually done any of those things as he wants us to believe, he would phrase it very differently.

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks for reply.

Why not just finish with her then? Bit extreme to kill?

.. but from your own experience you've said that your abusive ex almost did that to you .. so why didn't he just finish with you instead? Answer: because that is not the way it works and that is why 2 women a week are killed by a partner or an ex partner in England and Wales.

 

[kaos]

I agree,

Also Roux's already seen everything that's in there. I can't see him leaving something too incriminating for OP to deal with.

He's already said enough me thinks :wink:

Roux's seen the zombie stopper video, the crime scene photos, the Tasha statements etc and Nel's still managed to glean info from OP about what appears to be trivia but ends up being very relevant.

 

[lisasalinger]

Thanks for reply.

Why not just finish with her then? Bit extreme to kill?

Please don't take this the wrong way because I truly do not mean to come across sarcastic, but you are aware that thousands of people are killed every day around the world, correct?

People have the capacity to kill. There is never a good reason for it.

 

[kaos]

It does sound that way. With fully automatic you only squeeze the trigger once and all the bullets fire one after the other.

There's no subtlety in the way guns operate I'm afraid.

Makes you wonder if he was planning to get automatics into his new venture of gun collecting?

 

[Gryffindor]

.. but from your own experience you've said that your abusive ex almost did that to you .. so why didn't he just finish with you instead? Answer: because that is not the way it works and that is why 2 women a week are killed by a partner or an ex partner in England and Wales.

No. I got out. That's the answer.

 

[Viper]

It does sound that way. With fully automatic you only squeeze the trigger once and all the bullets fire one after the other.

There's no subtlety in the way guns operate I'm afraid.

OP's gun is not automatic! Please. :facepalm: It is a semi-automatic 9mm pistol. It fires one bullet each time the trigger is pulled, just one.

 

[Bazinga]

Can anybody ever adequately explain why people kill?

People kill for all sorts of ridiculous reasons and rarely can anybody predict it, unless the person is a straight up psychopath.

Why did OJ kill Nicole? He wasn't a psychopath. He had everything to lose.

These things are not logical.

I've been wondering about what got Oscar extremely mad on that night.
I believe from evidence that they were arguing. I've often wondered why Oscar hadn't put his legs on as I imagine him feeling more powerful and in control that way. I find it hard to visualise a heated escalating argument between them and he remains on his stumps willingly.
I've also felt from text messages that Reeva has a bit of fight in her and might have argued back stronger that night, called him out on his actions and behaviour and doing something to level the playing field.
One theory I've pondered is -
In the heated argument in and around the bed or even downstairs Reeva grabbed Oscar's prosthetic legs from by the bed and took them with her. Maybe she had them in the bedroom and locked the door. Maybe she had them in the toilet? Just a theory and I know it can't be proved but it fits for me.

 

[soozieqtips]

Yep, he has not.

What he did say was the paramedic asked him for Reeva's identification and that was when he went upstairs. He specifically testified "I didn't go through her purse", I just gave it to Clarice who was upstairs standing outside his bedroom. Why did he need to throw that tidbit in - didn't go through her purse? And Clarice should have known better as a lawyer not to CONTAMINATE the scene by going upstairs.

Another thing that quite honestly has me freaked out is the plastic bags, rope and tape. Roux asks him why were plastic bags there. Of course, Oscar can't remember who got them but they were using them to stop the bleeding.

Do you know anybody who uses plastic bags to stop bleeding? ANYTHING would be better than plastic bags to stop bleeding.

He also said that Clarice told him to get rope and/or tape so she could stop the bleeding on the arm.

He will not admit to getting the bags and apparently rope and/or tape that we haven't seen, but Roux felt necessary to address. There is that selective amnesia and blame again... It was all Clarice.

WTF. Again... jaw on the floor... totally freaked out... HOW DOES ANYBODY BELIEVE HIM AT THIS POINT?? This story gets worse and worse.

Weren't the plastic bags the big rubbish bags used for bins? As for the rope and tape, well, the only time I've seen those used around a dead body is to wrap it up to dispose of it. On TV I hasten to add!! But they're not really first aid items in my opinion. Not by a long shot. On the other hand, the ambulance was already on its way by then (I think).

I found his comment about not going through Reeva's purse very strange. Why would he need to say that? It was defensive for no reason, unless there was a reason. Had he gone through it to check there was nothing in there that was incriminating against him? Was he checking for signs of cheating? I think the very fact he said he didn't go through her bag means he definitely went through her bag.

 

[Duchy]

But, I mean, whose relationship is? We fight, we get the things that bother us out in the open, we make up.

Who is 'we'?

 

[nastasya]

The fans are hugely relevant to the story and I think Nel did a great job making some points.

1. Oscar's bail affidavit was not accurate. He did not go OUT on to the balcony to get them. The only portion of the fan that was ever outside was one leg. He can try to blame his attorneys all he wants but the fact of the matter is that it was his story. He claimed he did not see Reeva get up to go to the bathroom. How the flip is that possible if he is standing right there in the room (not out on the balcony). It's a huge part of the story.

2. Oscar made the claim in his plea statement that the scene was tampered with by police. So Nel MUST test his claim here. Some people may be bored at the level of detail in this testimony, but again, it's Oscar's story and Nel is testing it. There was no possible way to plug in both fans at that extension cord. Oscar said on the stand they were both plugged in there and they were both on. He is lying. The fans were never there in the door, they weren't both plugged in, they weren't both on, he never had to get up at 3am to bring them in and all that other nonsense. Oscar's only way to explain the fans now is that the police clearly moved them. Blame the cops. Even though when they were on the scene immediately after the crime they had no clue what Oscar's story was going to be.

The fans are important. Nel did his job here and I have no doubt that the Judge recognized what he was doing.

I think what's more important about the fans is that when they concocted the killer's story they used the fans in the beginning, then forgot about them.

In other words:

1. they needed OP to go onto the deck to explain why he didn't see Reeva get up out of bed. So they made up the go out on the deck and bring the fans inside fairy tale.

2. Then they needed a story that included OP screaming for help, so they made up the "I ran back to the deck and yelled help help help."

Here's the problem with making stuff up...

They forgot that the first part of the fairy tale included fans being placed in front of the door. When they made the part up about OP running back to the deck, he forgot that he would have needed to move the fans out of the way.

Oops.

Now the killer's story must now be that a) the fans weren't exactly where he claimed he moved them from the balcony, b) he forgot to mention he moved the fans out of the way when he went back on the deck, or c) the police somehow moved the fans into a position that makes him look like he's lying.

Oh, and small detail... the fans as he described them couldn't have both been plugged into outlets and he was in the room the entire time when Reeva allegedly got up out of bed to go to the bathroom.

Yes, the fans are a HUGE deal because they are the foundation for his entire alibi. And he's already admitted the part in the sworn affidavit was written by his attorneys and is materially false.

He's toast. And Nel is just getting started...

 

[Lyra500]

Makes you wonder if he was planning to get automatics into his new venture of gun collecting?

The prospect of that idiot in possession of automatic weapons is truly horrific. I suppose the one small consolation in all of this is that he is unlikely to ever be allowed to own a gun again.

 

[jay-jay]

No. I got out. That's the answer.

But that doesn't answer the question you originally posed which was asking why *he* (OP) didn't just finish the relationship .. that is what I was responding to. I was talking about the abuser, not the abused.

 

[TrueDetective]

My husband walked into the room while OP was going back & forth about not having his finger on the trigger. He knows nothing about the trial & hasn't been following it. He stood there & listened for 10 minutes, walked out laughing & saying "what's wrong with that ******, he couldn't dig a bigger hole for himself if he tried"

Yes, I received a similar perspective whilst I was in the waiting room watching rolling coverage on Sky News. Most people coming and going muttered about how boring it was "oh not this again" sort of thing and the rest were very matter of fact about how obvious his guilt is and how false/inappropriate his crying has been. This is Yorkshire, UK so comments were blunt, unforgiving and to the point! But sometimes, that gut reaction as as valuable as deep thought and analysis. Yes, I don't like it if it turns into a mob mentality or bullying with a lack of empathy or willingness to understand all aspects in more detail but human nature is as it is and many people keep it very simple and make quick judgements to protect their own routines, peace of mind and perhaps even health and sanity.

As its the first time I've directly witnessed a large number of genuine in-person responses and opinions it was heartening to see that common sense can prevail as I find the lack of it from certain posters rather hard to fathom.
I certainly do not desire a blanket thrown over all alternative views in here - far from it; but the willing suspension of disbelief goes way too far for some.

 

[Carmelita]

I am not watching the trial, just bits and pieces, but I have read quite a bit, IMO Oscar’s histrionics appear to be self-serving. Before this happened was a national hero, and brought honor to SA, after reading this statement by the judge ,


"I don't think you can ask him why now. He has been emotional throughout." - Judge Thokozile Masipa.

seemingly dismissing the prosecutors valid questioning of Oscar’s melodramatic behavior, I get the feeling that his celebrity status may be influencing her prism by which to judge, I wonder how much sway the two experts paneled with her will have on her ruling.

I hope that the judge is not smitten with him and rules on the evidence not misplaced emotion.

 

[Gryffindor]

But that doesn't answer the question you originally posed which was asking why *he* (OP) didn't just finish the relationship .. that is what I was responding to. I was talking about the abuser, not the abused.

I was actually asking Lisa that question during a conversation we were having.

 

[soozieqtips]

No. I got out. That's the answer.

Reeva couldn't get out. She was locked in the toilet and she was murdered in the toilet. Not sure I understand why you're looking for specific reasons as to why OP would kill her, or asking why he didn't finish with her instead of killing her. Only OP knows why and he's not telling.