Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[Viper]

Snipped for space...

I'm trying to find a picture online of what these wheelchair accessible double doors look like. I'm not sure I understand completely what he was trying to explain.

Of course, I've seen the crime scene photos of the door(s) but they don't show them as a whole, just zoomed in areas of damage.

If anybody can help me, that would be great. Thx!

Hi Lisa! I'm just now rejoining so your question may have already been answered. But Oscars home is not equipped for the handicapped, those doors to his bedroom are simple double doors and there is no elevator in his house to accommodate someone in a wheelchair to get to the second floor anyway. In addition a person who is wheelchair-bound does not want to struggle trying to open two doors. The best option is to install wider door openings and doors, and have all of the doors have single opening.

OP was an Olympic runner, he has excellent mobility, and he has never been wheelchair-bound. OP was just using his physical deformity as a play for sympathy from the judge.

 

[Val1]

I think OP has good lawyers. Think Roux is smart enough to have figured out the problems with OP's changed versions (bail, plea, trial), the placement/plugging in of fans, etc. I don't envy Roux -- he's probably stressed to the max.
MOO

bbm - I wish the cameras had been on Roux when Nel was defending him against OP's claims.

 

[wb180]

By saying "I shot and killed Reeva" would sound like he intended to kill her not an intruder. Knowingly and intentionally wanted to kill her.

He wouldn't say it because he didn't want to kill her.

Also I found it the most horrific, awkward, brutal bullying by Nel.

If OP told the truth rather than thinking how the answer might impact his life, maybe the questioning will be different.

 

[luvmygarden]

Yeah, forgot his lines. Aren't we all assuming that he has gone through witness prep with Roux and has some stock default answers when he feels the pressure?

Often I feel bad for the attorney sitting and listening to the other side regardless if it Prosecution or Defense. They have so much control and appear to have so much patience when on the inside they are probably wanting to climb out of their skin.

Stock, fall back answers for OP appear to be "I don't remember" and adds I have been so stressed. Maybe self assigned answers. What does Roux do to take back his case? Not from Prosecution but from OP?

 

[lalamaria]

I missed a lot today sorry if this was answered but does anyone know or think tmro we will hear more about the argument nel was hinting at asking op about? I wanna hear more about where nel was going with that...

 

[AlwaysShocked]

On another note, today is actually the first time Nel presented his "argument" theory. Wonder what he plans to back this up with?

The damaged entry door into the bedroom? The damaged metal panel on the bathtub? The duvet thrown to the floor? He already has one witness who heard a man and a woman's voices arguing.

 

[BritsKate]

Just a note about the time I referenced: 3:12 is an estimation by Oscar. He's working backwards from 3:17 assuming it took 5 minutes to run all over the house, put his legs on, break a door down, sit and hold Reeva on the floor, etc.

Just wanted to be clear. Still don't buy it though.

 

[lisasalinger]

"Well I totally disagree that it's been proved that the fans were never on the balcony (or partially on the balcony or whatever)."

Oscar testified the fans were never on the balcony. He said only one leg of the tripod style fan was on the patio flooring, that the other two legs were on the carpeted bedroom flooring. He also said the small fan was sitting on the carpeted bedroom floor in between the legs of the tripod fNn. Said he never went out onto the patio at all. Said he was in the bedroom the whole time. Said he had his back turned to the bed at some point during the moving of the fans.

-------------

No matter how exact or inexact is the science of determining time of death based on stomach contents, no medical expert whatsoever, anywhere is going to agree that food would remain in the stomach 7 or 8 hours after it was eaten.

So that puts things where? Reeva ate much later than what Oscar has testified to. And even if we put it at say, 4 hours prior to her death, that would be around 11:00PM.

IMO Oscar is lying about the time they ate. Why?

Because he has to. He came up with his "story" for the Bail Hearing and he is pretty much tied into it. Except when he changes his "version" - as in Reeva was asleep. No, she was awake. I went out onto the patio. No, I never went out onto the patio.

I think Nel has quite a long way to go with this witness. He hasn't even started on Oscar's post-death actions with the poor woman's dead body. Garbage bags! When I first read that she was laying there in the hallway covered with garbage bags (that's what the article I read said) I was dumbfounded. Others have pointed out that perhaps this was as protection against blood.

Which still doesn't make sense to me. Oscar already had her blood all over him, plus theoretically he was having a sexual relationship with her and would have already been exposed to any possible diseases she had. (And we've read of none.) And there has been no other testimony or indication that anyone else was performing any lifesaving techniques on her, right? Not lawyer lady, not the guards.

Don't waste your energy thinking about the plastic bags. They are only good for one thing at a crime scene and it's not stopping bleeding. Cover up/disposal!

 

[kaos]

Just a note about the time I referenced: 3:12 is an estimation by Oscar. He's working backwards from 3:17 assuming it took 5 minutes to run all over the house, put his legs on, break a door down, sit and hold Reeva on the floor, etc.

Just wanted to be clear. Still don't buy it though.

Thanks, I was wondering where that time was coming from.

 

[wb180]

Often I feel bad for the attorney sitting and listening to the other side regardless if it Prosecution or Defense. They have so much control and appear to have so much patience when on the inside they are probably wanting to climb out of their skin.

Stock, fall back answers for OP appear to be "I don't remember" and adds I have been so stressed. Maybe self assigned answers. What does Roux do to take back his case? Not from Prosecution but from OP?

At the end of the day, Roux is just doing his job based on what OP tells me. He is just a voice for OP.

Problem is OP is a loose cannon and I am sure his body language is very telling. His voice and his answers are already very telling.

 

[IfIMay]

At the end of the day, Roux is just doing his job based on what OP tells me. He is just a voice for OP.

Problem is OP is a loose cannon and I am sure his body language is very telling. His voice and his answers are already very telling.

It's killing me we can't see the little coward on the stand. I bet it is very telling, too.

 

[lisasalinger]

Hi Lisa! I'm just now rejoining so your question may have already been answered. But Oscars home is not equipped for the handicapped, those doors to his bedroom are simple double doors and there is no elevator in his house to accommodate someone in a wheelchair to get to the second floor anyway. In addition a person who is wheelchair-bound does not want to struggle trying to open two doors. The best option is to install wider door openings and doors, and have all of the doors have single opening.

OP was an Olympic runner, he has excellent mobility, and he has never been wheelchair-bound. OP was just using his physical deformity as a play for sympathy from the judge.

Thx, Viper. For some reason I had this weird vision of there being two doors in one normal sized frame, like one on top of the other. I was totally confused when OP was describing it. That might have been because it was 3am when I was watching the testimony

But I see what you're saying now... they are just two doors next to each other and one is held in place by the bottom/top latches. I've seen those before. I'm good now. The 3am fog has lifted

 

[Viper]

bbm - I wish the cameras had been on Roux when Nel was defending him against OP's claims.

BIB. As you wish! :smile:

Quote:
"Now you blame counsel Mr Roux," Mr Nel said, prompting Mr Roux to shake his head at a colleague.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...-police-of-tampering-with-crime-scene/5382550

 

[lisasalinger]

True. He has never been a responsible gun owner, however, he answered those questions correctly in order to obtain even more guns so that shows that he does know the correct way to be a responsible gun owner. He just choses not to be a responsible gun owner.

MOO

Great point!

 

[Val1]

I don't remember anything about the fans. I remember Roux saying to a State witness that the toilet room light was broken. Is that perhaps what you are thinking of?

Re the fans iirc, OP had said at one point that both fans were on(I think during direct) and that he hadn't unplugged them and yes, I vaguely recall Roux commenting that they were no longer on.

 

[BritsKate]

Thanks, I was wondering where that time was coming from.

His testimony. Had to find a link to make sure I hadn't imagined it - or that he'd said it, then didn't again.

He said the three sounds heard by witnesses at 03:17 local time was the cricket bat hitting the door - about five minutes after he shot at the toilet door.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26948735

 

[nastasya]

By saying "I shot and killed Reeva" would sound like he intended to kill her not an intruder. Knowingly and intentionally wanted to kill her.

He wouldn't say it because he didn't want to kill her.

Also I found it the most horrific, awkward, brutal bullying by Nel.

State of Defense Case Indicator = CODE RED! <modsnip> CAUGHT LYING AGAIN!!

-Must twist semantics to portray <modsnip> in best possible light!
-Must attack Nel as a brutal, horrific, bully!
-Must portray <modsnip> as the defenseless victim!


Re the testimony of the <modsnip>:

• Why do you think he changed his story from going out on the balcony to never leaving the bedroom?
  
• How did he run onto the balcony without running over the duvet?
  
• If the fan was where the duvet was, how did he open the balcony door if it was blocked by the fan?
  
• Why did he break through the closed side of the bedroom door when the other door was open?
  
• How did the gun shoot by itself in the restaurant without the <modsnip> pulling the trigger?
  
• Who took the <modsnip> phone from the house and why? How did it get back to the defense team?

 

[lisasalinger]

How about Nel calling Oscar out on the double-tap nonsense.

Of course, Oscar states it was a mistake by Roux. Roux even bit the bullet for him on that one in court when he apologized for it. But lets be real...

Roux did not make that up nor did he make a mistake. It is FAR too important of a detail to mess up.

I am quite certain that Mr. Roux understood his client's explanation of how he shot his gun that night.

They deliberately changed their version because it was again glaringly obvious from Mangena's testimony that a double tap makes no sense.

I mean really... when does the nonsense stop?

 

[celticthyme]

"Well I totally disagree that it's been proved that the fans were never on the balcony (or partially on the balcony or whatever)."
No matter how exact or inexact is the science of determining time of death based on stomOscar testified the fans were never on the balcony. He said only one leg of the tripod style fan was on the patio flooring, that the other two legs were on the carpeted bedroom flooring. He also said the small fan was sitting on the carpeted bedroom floor in between the legs of the tripod fNn. Said he never went out onto the patio at all. Said he was in the bedroom the whole time. Said he had his back turned to the bed at some point during the moving of the fans.

-------------stomach contents, no medical expert whatsoever, anywhere is going to agree that food would remain in the stomach 7 or 8 hours after it was eaten.

So that puts things where? Reeva ate much later than what Oscar has testified to. And even if we put it at say, 4 hours prior to her death, that would be around 11:00PM.

IMO Oscar is lying about the time they ate. Why?

Because he has to. He came up with his "story" for the Bail Hearing and he is pretty much tied into it. Except when he changes his "version" - as in Reeva was asleep. No, she was awake. I went out onto the patio. No, I never went out onto the patio.


Which still doesn't make sense to me. Oscar already had her blood all over him, plus theoretically he was having a sexual relationship with her and would have already been exposed to any possible diseases she had. (And we've read of none.) And there has been no other testimony or indication that anyone else was performing any lifesaving techniques on her, right? Not lawyer lady, not the guards.

SNIPPED
Great questions.
I am beginning to wonder just how much of what he is reporting about the night of the murder is real, concocted or outright lies. We only have his word for any stories he comes up with. I believe there was an event that day that precipitated an argument by OP, likely about some perceived slight or cause for jealousy on Reeva's part, and things escalated. With his history of rages and tantrums, it could have been anything. She obviously had her phone password blocked for good reason. I think his trying to get into her phone (in the bathroom after he killed her) indicates she had communicated with someone and might have wanted to keep it from him. I think it is possible that by this point in the relationship (some 3 months) Reeva had had enough of his antics to know she wanted out, but was trapped. Her statement about being afraid of him is very telling. She probably was terrorized that night. Again we only have his "word" of how things evolved that day. Could the cricket bat tell a story of how things might have escalated downstairs and he was chasing her with it... causing blood spatters on the couch? Was she running to escape him and locked herself in the BR, only to enrage him all the more. I believe the whole "we were in bed using our ipods" could be a crock. There are so many little lies and so many huge ones, even he can't keep track. He's not half as bright as he thinks he is. The narcissist can not even imagine anyone not buying into his concoctions and delusions.The fact he denies & lies about obvious facts in evidence, makes him even more the fool. Only my opinion.

 

[Trooper]

I have a lot of people to thank for a tremendous insight that arrived late in my head , Val, Lycra, GBtaketwo, LisaSalinger, oh more, I know, you know who you are.


Its about those mystery trips of Oscar upstairs after the killing.. I had left out two significant trips because I didn't get the sequence even after listening to Oscar's testimony. It shot thru to the keeper ( a cricket term , meaning 'missed it completely')

(a)... the trip upstairs with Clarice to get bigger towels.. this is before Stipp gets there... he only goes as far as the landing on this trip.. Clarice , I gather, throws the towels down to him , Clarice has gone all the way up to the landing, ( possibly elsewhere, bathroom, bedroom)

(b)... the trip upstairs for Reeva's handbag with her ID, as the paramedics requested.. this one was after Stipp had left.. the paramedics hadn't arrived when Stipp left to get home and reassure his wife he was ok. Stipp left because there was nothing more he could do for Reeva.. Police hadn't arrived either, and probably that is because the only person who did ring the police was Stipp himself, either from Oscars or from home.

So.. to correct my original count of trips upstairs and down after the killing..

next post, some rotten sod is expecting me to do some work in my office here.