Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[jay-jay]

I have read a few times now about a pair of woman's jeans found lying on the ground outside the house. Has this been used in evidence already or at the PT planning to use it in evidence?

It hasn't been raised yet but am hoping they are going to, and hopefully solve that mystery for us!

 

[BritsKate]

Does anyone have a clue why there was a really really long pause after Nel asked OP "Did you hear Reeva scream after the first shot"?. At first I thought I'd lost the feed because the pause went on and on, and then when I realised I hadn't lost the feed, I thought OP was about to crack and confess! No such joy, but as we couldn't see his reaction, I wondered if anyone here had noticed just how long that pause was. And I didn't hear any sobbing, so it wasn't that.

He did actually break down and the court adjourned again. One of my fave reporters called it a tear break after their tea break. Here are some tweets from reporters at the time:

Aislinn Laing @SimmoaNel: "Are you sure that Reeva did not scream after the first shot." Pistorius looks back, looks at the ceiling, long pause.

Rebecca Davis@becsplanbNel: Are you sure, Mr Pistorius, that Reeva did not scream after first shot? Pistorius sits back in silence, his eyes closed, sighs deeply

Alex Crawford@AlexCrawfordSky#OscarPistorius Long pause. Nel: Are you sure she didnt scream after first shot?

Oscar Trial Channel@OscarTrial199#oscartrial Pistorius chokes up...he says she didn't scream...he couldn't hear because his ears were ringing.

Barry Bateman@barrybateman#OscarTrial Nel are you sure she didn’t scream after the first shot. Oscar overcome with emotion. BB

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 12h
Nel: are you sure Mr Pistorius that Reeva didn't scream after the first shot? #OscarPistorius looks straight up, crying @eNCAnews

Jerome Starkey @jeromestarkey · 12h ago
Overcome with emotion, or racking his brains for what to say? #Pistorius sat back in his chair & said zip, as Nel demanded if Reeva screamed

David Smith ‏@SmithInAfrica 12h
Nel: "Are you sure, Mr #Pistorius, that Reeva did not scream after the first shot?" #Pistorius goes silent, leans back in chair. Long pause.

David Smith ‏@SmithInAfrica 12h
Finally #Pistorius speaks: "I wish she'd let me know she was there. She did not do that."

And a bonus tweet because it made me LOL:
Phillip de Wet ‏@phillipdewet 13h
Nice to know #OscarPistorius' lawyers haven't breached the rules and spoken to him while he's under cross. He'd have had a broken nose.

https://twitter.com/phillipdewet
http://www.channel4.com/news/pistorius-trial-murder-watch-live-video

 

[jay-jay]

He needs specialist treatment!! He has no humility whatsoever, and still doesn't get that he's done anything particularly wrong apart from make a 'mistake'. His whole mindset needs changing. He needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around him, people aren't there just to serve his needs, he's not special, he's just a guy. No amount of time in prison is going to teach him humility and empathy. If anything, he'll fester inside and come out even more bitter and resentful because someone had the cheek to hold him to account and lock him up!

Yes, he does seem to have totally downgraded a horrific murder to just a casual mistake, doesn't he .. it's deeply unpleasant, imo.

 

[minor4th]

He needs specialist treatment!! He has no humility whatsoever, and still doesn't get that he's done anything particularly wrong apart from make a 'mistake'. His whole mindset needs changing. He needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around him, people aren't there just to serve his needs, he's not special, he's just a guy. No amount of time in prison is going to teach him humility and empathy. If anything, he'll fester inside and come out even more bitter and resentful because someone had the cheek to hold him to account and lock him up!

Well, I don't think you can really judge what's in his mind when he is testifying in defense of a murder charge. If he feels guilty and wrong, he's not going to say that outright during his testimony in his own defense. That's human nature and doesn't say anything in particular about OP.

I don't think jail will necessarily teach him humility or give him insight. I think only reflection and introspection will do that. I wouldn't say that's impossible, and indeed I hope that is what happens.

 

[steveml]

I respectfully disagree. In a panic and in fear for your life, I would expect a person to have fired until they no longer could, whereas if in anger, you only need to fire until the anger has been satisfied, by stopping the source of your anger to continue to fire it.

I would imagine that almost anybody facing an intruder for the first time is fearful and panicky. Almost all examples of intruder shootings have differing number of shots, ranging from 1 to many, A full magazine being used is quite a rarity.

I can understand that it fits the crime nicely for the four shots to have been fired in anger, but past records appear to suggest that the amount of bullets discharged has no relation to the nature of the crime.

 

[dodie20]

Didn't you hear, the security guards and apparently the whole police force, perhaps even his own lawyers are all working against him. OP has definite trust issues... but he then expects us to believe that not only does his father who he hasn't had any contact with for around 5 yrs has access to not only his home but also the combination for one of his safes, but that he told RS to call the very people he doesn't trust to save them, and not just once.

exactly...he expects us to believe his logic for not calling police after supposedly, really being shot at! but then he expects us to believe the opposite logic applied this night and he wanted police called over a noise. So, a noise=grounds for calling police, but being shot at, doesn't? and then after the killing, he was back to the not calling the police logic. moo

 

[kittychi]

Yeah, you just can't predict what someone would do.

Do I really think it happened the way he said? No.

But, I can't prove it.

The only possibility I've seen so far that might work towards guilt--I think she was dressed in street clothes, and the contents of her stomach showing she ate at 1am not 7pm.

That would suggest they never went to bed that night and the fight started downstairs with her fleeing to the bedroom.

But it's not enough for me, yet.

Not the testimony of five witnesses that heard female screams either?

 

[liesbeth]

I would imagine that almost anybody facing an intruder for the first time is fearful and panicky. Almost all examples of intruder shootings have differing number of shots, ranging from 1 to many, A full magazine being used is quite a rarity.

I can understand that it fits the crime nicely for the four shots to have been fired in anger, but past records appear to suggest that the amount of bullets discharged has no relation to the nature of the crime.

But this would not have been the first time OP thought he was facing an intruder. Samantha Taylor testified about one incident. OP tweeted about going code red on a washing machine. Rens testified that OP was trained to "clear the house" of intruders.

 

[Patagonia]

Don't worry, I'm also confused as to why he would withhold this information, it is strange he wouldn't remember who collected/helped him etc...I have no answer to that! Maybe Roux will come back to that..i have no idea!

This, to me, seems equally crazy and impossible as the gun at Tasha's firing without Oscar's finger ever being on the trigger (as he claimed).

There is no way in my mind, and it's certainly not reasonably believable, that he would not remember who picked him up, and/or who collected his car after that incident. No way in hell is that possible. And Nel was right, Oscar (conveniently) can't remember it - because it never happened.

OP invented this story simply to ''prove'' his claims of living in constant fear and being already traumatized by previous ''attacks''.

Because if it really happened, then - believe you me - he would go to great lengths to prove it! And if it was possible that he forgot who picked him up afterwords, then he would at least be able to name a few friends to whom he spoke about this incident, and they would then be called to testify!

Don't think for a second that his lawyers wouldn't do everything to prove that this important prior incident really happened, had it been possible to prove it.

And it is not possible to prove it because it is not true.

 

[fox1lady]

Forgive me..I lol'ed!!

Oh dear, Milady won't like that

 

[kaos]

Well, I don't think you can really judge what's in his mind when he is testifying in defense of a murder charge. If he feels guilty and wrong, he's not going to say that outright during his testimony in his own defense. That's human nature and doesn't say anything in particular about OP.

I don't think jail will necessarily teach him humility or give him insight. I think only reflection and introspection will do that. I wouldn't say that's impossible, and indeed I hope that is what happens.

I disagree with that as the 'reasonable person' requires you must have some understanding of what the accused is thinking.

 

[Freya1977]

Stop and think.

Reeva was just in the bedroom with Oscar

She knows the bedroom door is locked and extra secured with the cricket bat

She saw Oscar playing with the fans when she got up

She KNOWS there is no intruder in the bedroom

She goes is in the bathroom and KNOWS there is no intruder in the bathroom

If Oscar starts screaming 5 seconds later that there's an intruder...

Where the flipping h#ll did the intruder come from?? Was he hiding in their curtains for hours waiting for this one exact precise moment.

She did NOT think there was an intruder and kept silent while Oscar was screaming at her 3 meters away. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE!!!!

Stop and think.

But she wouldn't have known if maybe someone had burst through the bedroom doors, or could even have come up over the balcony. I don't think I'd be disbelieving my partner if he's screaming at me to hide because there was an intruder. I wouldn't be rationalizing it out at that point. I think I would keep quiet.

 

[minor4th]

I disagree with that as the 'reasonable person' requires you must have some understanding of what the accused is thinking.

I don't think so. We're talking about what is on his mind during his testimony. I don't think you can judge a person or diagnose him just by his testimony in court when defending a murder charge

 

[minor4th]

For anyone who listened to the testimony today - was Oscar's story about the roadway shooting that a car just pulled up and tried to shoot him? Like, there was no provocation leading up to it and he didn't know the person who tried to shoot him?

 

[Carol70]

Obviously your post was an "accident."

Clearly each time your fingers hovered over a key it accidentally triggered that letter's key to be struck somehow.

Hehe, accident,triggered...I see what you did there!!

 

[IfIMay]

I disagree with that as the 'reasonable person' requires you must have some understanding of what the accused is thinking.

I can see possibly in mitigation, but not in the guilt phase. If he's so mentally handicapped that it has to be taken in consideration at the guilt phase, then he should have an insanity defense! Paranoid does not equal reasonable.

 

[fox1lady]

If he wants to restore his image at all or have any future in public life here's what I think would be best for him -

Get some kind of jail sentence but not so lengthy that he's an old man when he comes out.

Write a book while he's in jail whereby he takes full responsibility and gives insight into the dangers of reckless behavior and gun ownership, the value of human life and the responsibility and duty to act rationally so as to preserve life, etc

When he gets out of jail, make a point of publicly and often speaking of the above subjects, show humility, acknowledge his bad behavior and the horrific consequences to so many people and become an educator and spokesman against such reckless behavior and disregard for human life.

Then he might be welcomed back into society and accepted again.

Reeva will still be dead though! I think people would buy the book and perhaps listen to him for a bit but after a year or two he will be forgotten. I doubt he will ever be looked up to by the masses ever again. Like another poster said, he'll still have some fans... particularly the two that have held centre stage during this trial :floorlaugh: Sorry :moo:

 

[IfIMay]

For anyone who listened to the testimony today - was Oscar's story about the roadway shooting that a car just pulled up and tried to shoot him? Like, there was no provocation leading up to it and he didn't know the person who tried to shoot him?

correct. no road rage preceding.. just random.

 

[BritsKate]

For anyone who listened to the testimony today - was Oscar's story about the roadway shooting that a car just pulled up and tried to shoot him? Like, there was no provocation leading up to it and he didn't know the person who tried to shoot him?

Pretty much.

He said he was driving and a car came up behind him. He moved over and the black Mercedes Benz moved in front of him. He saw a muzzle flash from the back of the car.

"I could hear a banging noise and I saw a reddish-white explosion," Pistorius said.

"I have no idea why they fired at me."

http://www.ecr.co.za/post/oscar-pistorius-didnt-trust-police/

 

[kaos]

I don't think so. We're talking about what is on his mind during his testimony. I don't think you can judge a person or diagnose him just by his testimony in court when defending a murder charge

But that's exactly what the judge is going to have to do. She is going to decide whether a reasonable person would have walked down that passage way, whether a reasonable person would have fired 4 bullets into a door etc so he will be being judged by his testimony and what his thought process was during the event.