Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[supernovaNic]

If he fired from the hip, on stumps, then the bullet holes would be lower. Does anyone have crime scene photo of the door with bullet holes?

 

[Freya1977]

Will they be at lunch now?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I don't think police photographers are artistically trained. They just take photos ensuring enough light, contrast, etc. and the photographer that testified, (can't remember name), seemed more of a policeman. So when Roux challenged him with the bat photos affirming they proved the bat had been moved the poor man agreed when had he been versed in perspective and foreshortening he would have argued back, quite rightly, that it was 100% impossible to affirm movement from 2 different photos from two different angles. By the time of Nel's cross someone on the PT team had obviously told him that Roux misled the court with the bat being moved so Nel in his cross pointed out the different perspectives. Just hope the judge got it so Roux can't try the trick again when they talk about all these moving objects !

I am sure the judge will have picked up on it .
I am not a photographer and did immediately just because I could tell by the lines on the tiles

 

[asanque]

Nel came up with legalese there about the defence plea, but he lost me....what did it mean anyone?

OP's original defence was that the gun went off by accident.

This means 'involuntary action' which is a complete defence.

However, if he shot in fear, there was intention, and that removes that defence.

This opens up the door for putative self defence which is a separate defence.

Oscar :jail:

Although, his accidental '4' shots was always going to land him there anyway

Edit: Here is the relevant case
S v De Oliveira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second Edit: Article on this issue
http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/

Third Edit: I actually might have it backwards initially so I have revised

 

[sleuth-d-]

I don't think he expected the crime scene investigators to be quite so good at what they do and be able to pick up on every little thing .. he thought/thinks he would/will be able to outwit everyone all the time, but hasn't realised how experienced these people and no amount of contamination will hide things like a trail of blood which follows a line across the carpet then onto the duvet .. and then which means, together with the fact the jeans are overlapping the duvet, that the duvet must've been on the floor all the time .. which then in turn means that the fan couldn't have been in the place where the duvet is.

Nice try though, Oscar.

agreed too.
op the narcissist is so far out of his comfort zone, even from his bravado stance in the witness box of mid last week. and the distance from that comfort zone is getting further and further.

 

[zwiebel]

Hi Z: Please translate the SA jargon to German then English I can understand... TIA!

Lol, you don't want any translation of a foreign language I can provide! I am so, so bad at languages. I often wonder how I get by....

 

[sleuth-d-]

If he fired from the hip, on stumps, then the bullet holes would be lower. Does anyone have crime scene photo of the door with bullet holes?

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/oscar-pistorius-new-crime-scene-pics/

[please delete if we are not allowed to post these links]

 

[lisasalinger]

OP denying that he wanted to shoot the person in the WC. He "fired at the door," not at the attacker.

Here come the tears again! I wish that he would just confess. Listening to Mr. Nel slice him to pieces is painful.

Man, I'm really getting to the point where I wish I didn't have to watch anymore but I'm too invested now. OP just makes me cringe on so many levels.

 

[shane13]

I don't think he sounded like a woman although it was obviously a forced attempt to do so and a complete farce. IMO it sounded like a male who had just even kicked between the legs lol.

IN Oscar-Speak: Ouch!

 

[Britlaws]

I am the same height as OP and my bathroom door is similar, I just stood in front of it and if I had a gun, held it in front of me with a bent arm the bullet holes A to D would be the same, and the bullets would go downwards. I have always thought he was on his prothetics the whole time and I am now convinced he was.

ETA I am same height as him with prothesis on, i.e. 6 feet and a half an inch.

Further edit - I would have to be quite close to the door though, like 1 metre away, the further I move away the lower the bullet holes would be.

 

[Dr Mattus]

I think it has been a real mistake for the DT and OP to have kept using this phrase .. Roux started with it right at the beginning of the trial, and OP has continued to use it .. it is basically 'code speak' for 'I will do anything to risk spending what will seem like an enternity in prison, and I am prepared to lie in order to do so'. Very, very, poor judgement on their part to have introduced this phrase .. especially when he is not actually fighting for his 'life' like Reeva was, and especially when he has said it in front of her mother, her family and her friends.

It is an absolutely terrible phrase to use. It is particularly unfortunate since his defence is that the last time he convinced himself that his life was on the line when it wasn't he shot his girlfriend in the face.

 

[benn25]

Can I ask; and im sorry if this has been asked before, im new here, but....can OP consult with his council when the trial gets adjourned everytime or do are they allowed some sort of contact of any kind?

 

[zwiebel]

OP's original defence was that the gun went off by accident.

This opens up the door for putative self defence.

However, if he shot in fear, there was intention, and that removes that defence.

Oscar :jail:

Although, his accidental '4' shots was always going to land him there anyway

Edit: Here is the relevant case
S v De Oliveira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you! I can see why OP had to give evidence now too.

I notice the sentences were reduced on appeal, but still upheld.

 

[G.bng]

OP denying that he wanted to shoot the person in the WC. He "fired at the door," not at the attacker.

Here come the tears again! I wish that he would just confess. Listening to Mr. Nel slice him to pieces is painful.

Yeah... OP is really going into the land of the absurd. He perceives an intruder is coming out of the toilet door about to attack Reeva and at which point he fires at the door not one but 4 times, i.e. bang... bang bang bang, but claims he doesn't know why he shot, that he didn't want to shoot, and although I thought he accepted he shot at the perceived danger he can't agree that he in effect shot at the intruder.

Sadly it appears he just wants to get off with no consequence because others in his circumstances, like Mdunge who killed his pregnant wife in an almost identical situation, co-operated fully with the police, pleaded guilty to CH and got 8 years suspended sentence, but didn't have to live through all this torture.

 

[Cher352]

"I fired at the door" "I did not fire Reeva"

This has been one of the theories I have thought of. That they could have a fight, she goes to the toilet and locks the door. He like a child having a tantrum and fires at the door that is locked not even taking the time to consider that those bullets would go through the door and hit anyone inside.

 

[Viper]

Nel came up with legalese there about the defence plea, but he lost me....what did it mean anyone?

BIB Mr. Nel said that OP cannot have two defenses. OP is on one hand saying he fired out of fear, claiming putative self defense, fear. On the other hand he is claiming that he fired by "accident." He cannot have both as a defense.

 

[zwiebel]

Barry says Oscar was vomiting again. Glad we don't get to see that, I have to say.

https://mobile.twitter.com/barrybateman

I wonder if we will break for lunch now? It is time.

 

[asanque]

Thank you! I can see why OP had to give evidence now too.

I notice the sentences were reduced on appeal, but still upheld.

If the court is convinced that he killed Reeva intentionally it is murder.

However, at this point, he is at least guilty of culpable homicide that will have variable prison time.

The statement is as damning as the 'gun fired by itself' at Tashas.
That will be enough to convict on that charge as well.

 

[K.T]

Amazing exchange about "tagline - the moment everything changed":

P: I pointed my gun at the door, Milady.
I didn’t aim at the door; my firearm was pointed at the door.
N: You heard the sound. What happened then?

P: I discharged the firearm Milady, because I thought someone was coming out.
I didn’t have time to think abut what I was going to do. I was terrified.

Nel says incredulously: You are thinking every second, but now on this correct detail you didn’t think.
Is it your defence that you fired at the attacker?
P: No Milady.

N: Did you fire at the perceived attacker?

P: I fired at the door Milady.

N: Is your defence that you fired at the perceived attacker?
P: No
P: My defence is I heard the noise; I didn’t have time to interpret it. I fired out of fear.

N: Out of fear or by accident?

N: You understand you can’t have two defences.

P: I understand.
Nel jumps in and its quick fire set of questions, Pistorius is not really keeping up: You perceived at an attack, and you fired

P: I didn’t fire to kill anyone,

N: Or to ward to attack?

N: You have now changed your defence from Putative self defence to involuntary action. Is that correct?
P: I have given a reason to why I fired.
N: You know exactly why you fired, you fired at Reeva.

P: Its not true Milady.
N: Why are you getting emotional now?
P: I didn’t fire at Reeva. (Sobs loudly)

N: The witness is emotional, may we talk an adjournment again.

 

[kaos]

I am the same height as OP and my bathroom door is similar, I just stood in front of it and if I had a gun, held it in front of me with a bent arm the bullet holes A to D would be the same, and the bullets would go downwards. I have always thought he was on his prothetics the whole time and I am now convinced he was.

ETA I am same height as him with prothesis on, i.e. 6 feet and a half an inch.

Please let me know if this is too personal and I'll delete it but can you crouch on stumps?