Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[TipDog]

BBM

sad when its put that way. It wouldn't take much effort to at least do that.

adding to this is that he went upstairs after arriving and showered and watched ....or watched and then showered>we don't know.......

It's all about Oscar and something happened that day that upset him. I wouldn't be surprised if RS was a nuisance to him that evening, possibly even trying to touch his neck, shoulders, etc. to comfort him. Had he said in court that he and RS were watching (as young couples often do together and is no one's business normally), then I'd believe they'd been physical in a mutual fashion. But his reticence on the matter instead makes me think that he'd been perfectly fine being home alone to do his own thing. And then, she decided to stay as it was getting too late to drive.

Ugh...poor, poor Reeva. No matter what anyone thinks truly happened, wouldn't it be nice if we could turn the clock back to Feb 13, 2013 and plant the thought in her head to leave? After all, he didn't even bring her flowers. What a piece of **** he is. Sorry, but I do believe that is very telling as to how much they were not in a deeply loving relationship, nor was she the love of his life. She was convenient...until she became the match to light his fuse.

 

[fox1lady]

BBM

sad when its put that way. It wouldn't take much effort to at least do that.

adding to this is that he went upstairs after arriving and showered and watched ....or watched and then showered>we don't know.......

That as well as the sex pills he had seems to suggest that OP has a problem in the bedroom... erectile dysfunction perhaps?

 

[Rumpole]

Nel seems to have pulled this tiny scrap of a "State Case" out of his....... ear!


IF Nel is contending that this Mythical Meal (Last Supper) at 2:00AM which was an occasion for an argument then shooting.

WHERE are the damned dishes?

Did the Cops find dirty plates, bowls cutlery in the bedroom? Fast food cartons? Disposable plates etc? Food scraps spread around perhaps? Were the spots on the duvet tested for Gravy? lol
In turn was the kitchen searched for same signs of a recent meal? The remnants of that meal? Particularly food spilled or thrown around during an argument?

Nel's case does not make sense, and so is not true (Nel's Rule)

 

[DebinGA]

Oh I think she knew that he had a temper before the first shot. I don't think that she knew just how bad his temper really was. I don't think that she had any idea that he would get his gun and shoot her. Yell, scream, curse, attempt to hit her with his hand, things of that nature, YES. Shoot to kill her, NO. Not until he fired that first shot.

MOO

I believe the ear witness who heard a woman calling for help and a man mockingly calling for help. Something OP did, not just said, impelled Reeva to actively try to get the neighbors involved.

 

[TipDog]

It suggests they were in a loving relationship.

No it doesn't.

Unless you are willing the concede that OP not having so much as a card, flowers, nothing for RS suggests they were not in a loving relationship. Well, that and he shot her four times through a locked bathroom door on the morning of Valentine's Day.

 

[james83]

It suggests they were in a loving relationship.

Where is his card for her?, and if there wasn't one does that suggest it was a one way loving relationship?.

 

[MissJ]

JMO, it makes no sense to fire through a locked door when you know someone else is in the house and you do not know FOR SURE where that person is. Logic.

 

[Paysee]

I fully respect your view, even if I don't agree. As I said before I think Oscar is guilty, I just don't think it was an abusive relationship, or even that Oscar was less invested (based on the absence of a card - based on that presumption I would have to conclude my husband does not love me, yet we have been married almost 30 years..he does, he just doesn't get the importance of such things to a woman), more likely a moment of madness, triggered by what exactly we may never know.

Being married for 30 years and happily is a big achievement. Congratulations.

There is a huge difference between a married couple of 30 years, and a young couple dating for 3 months. You know your husband loves you, so forgotten anniversaries and absent cards and gifts probably don't mean much to you. But these young people do not know that the other cares for them, so it is more important that this caring be shown in some way, the easiest way being to buy gifts and cards.

We are living in the age of over-sharing, a.k.a the age of twitter and facebook. What you do, where you go, what you get for Valentine's day is all shown off. This is very important to a young person's ego and a person's relationship.

Lastly, these 2 are not ordinary people. They are celebrities. They were probably "catches" for each other. The expectations are more. The number of people watching them are more. The followers on twitter, friends on facebook are more.

Your situation is hardly the same.

I mean this respectfully. If you consider cards and flowers important to a woman, and your husband has not yet understood that, its sad.

 

[fox1lady]

It suggests they were in a loving relationship.

I think it suggests that like she had said previously, Reeva wanted everything to be right, she wanted to love and be loved. She was such a romantic. I think by giving Oscar his gifts the day before she was hoping that it would prod him to ensure that he got something for her (I've been known to do that myself at Xmas with my partner). I think she would have been so upset if on their very first Valentine together he didn't mark the occasion.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It suggests they were in a loving relationship.

Really?

Where is his gift/card to her?


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[TorisMom003]

Eating something around 2 am does not mean that it was a meal. It could have been a snack. Something that didn't produce any dirty dishes. It was also not said that the argument came about because of that "meal". During that "meal", directly after that "meal", heck maybe even before that "meal" an argument could have started. Unfortunately since the one left alive that could tell us, is the one that shot and killed the other one so we can expect to get lies in order to "fight for his life".

What doesn't make sense, OP's version of that night/early morning. Doesn't matter which version one decides to go with either. Take a pick between the three. None of them make sense. OP knows this, his lawyers know this, his family knows this, the judge knows this. Now, can his lawyers rehabilitate the mess that OP has put them in with the upcoming witnesses? That is the real question and one that I sincerely doubt will happen.

MOO

 

[Linda7NJ]

No it doesn't.



Unless you are willing the concede that OP not having so much as a card, flowers, nothing for RS suggests they were not in a loving relationship. Well, that and he shot her four times through a locked bathroom door on the morning of Valentine's Day.

Ya, kinda hard to get around that bullet riddled body ~


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[James50]

OP is crazy to have brought the 'wood moving' thing into play here .. he definitely originally meant by 'a movement' originally as being a person moving, not wood moving (as in the door being stuck/about to be opened) .. and he's even more crazy to have brought the 'magazine rack' word into play because whatever you do to a wooden magazine rack is never going to sound like a jammed wooden door trying to be opened.

You've misunderstood him. He said a movement as opposed to a mere sound, that's to say the sound of something moving. I don't think you can say that he definitely meant something else because if I'd heard the sound of something moving in the room, that's what I'd say as well if I wanted to be brief.

You've also misunderstood his point about the wooden rack. He stated clearly that he wasn't altogether st'ure what he'd heard, but in his panic he feared it might be the sound of the door about to open. He only realised with hindsight that it must have been the magazine rack. In the state of mind that he was in and with events moving so rapidly, he didn't have time to interpret it.

 

[Britlaws]

Could someone just save me from going back over OP's cross examination. This morning I believe, maybe yesterday, OP was asked about having his phone in the kitchen, saying he had put it in his pocket as "someone may have needed to phone me back" blah, blah. Was this the phone that got spirited away from the crime scene?

I was just thinking about what, if anything, about the missing phone could be included in the prosecution's final\closing arguments. It is not necessary as far as proving either elements of the offence or rebuttal of OP's reliance on putative self defence goes, just a potential issue of the credibility of the defendant.

I don't think they'll bother to be honest. Same with the damaged bedroom door. They didn't ask him because OP would just have come up with some crap story and there was no evidence to prove otherwise. As the bedroom door didn't feature in his 'version' he'll have had a whole year to make up a story for that... same with the phone.

 

[Magdalyn]

I cannot believe all the comments suggesting that a card from Reeva saying "I love you" is somehow evidence of an abusive relationship!

I haven't seen any such suggestion. You've seen posts suggesting Reeva saying 'I love you' in a card is evidence of an abusive relationship? Must have missed all of them. Perhaps you could respond to each specifically so we can see what to you see? Thanks!

Indeed.

Hey Minor!

Can I ask for your valued thoughts on today please?

BiB: Really? You've seen these posts too? I might need glasses. Where are these posts where the posters state Reeva's "I love you" indicates abuse in a relationship. Thanks!

Now, Gryffindor, you did state this:

Think the Valentine's card message and Reeva's words says it all.

Which, I may have missed it, you really didn't follow up to explain to us how Reeva's words 'says it all'.

But there was this post:

Rendered all of his fruitless efforts stating Reeva wanting to leave, arguing, not happy etc pointless.

Roux said SO MUCH with SO little. 1 sentence. Very effective.

Here, you seem to be saying Roux/Oscar/the reading of the card says so much with so little ... it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, the implication is that this card in which Reeva wrote the words 'I love you' before Oscar shot her to death...has shown ....what? All I can see is that Reeva wrote she loved him. It doesn't show anything about whether she wanted to leave, whether or not they were arguing that night or ever argued, or if he was abusive ever before or the night she died.

It is this post that has implied Roux/the card has somehow proven mutual intimate partner happiness...very effectively?

I've seen no such post that implies the opposite--that 'I love you' in a card shows abuse. I have, however seen past posts that imply 'Sometimes I'm scared of you' doesn't mean anything at all...

 

[TipDog]

Nel seems to have pulled this tiny scrap of a "State Case" out of his....... ear!


IF Nel is contending that this Mythical Meal (Last Supper) at 2:00AM which was an occasion for an argument then shooting.

WHERE are the damned dishes?

Did the Cops find dirty plates, bowls cutlery in the bedroom? Fast food cartons? Disposable plates etc? Food scraps spread around perhaps? Were the spots on the duvet tested for Gravy? lol
In turn was the kitchen searched for same signs of a recent meal? The remnants of that meal? Particularly food spilled or thrown around during an argument?

Nel's case does not make sense, and so is not true (Nel's Rule)

Nel made suggestions of what might have happened. It was all conjecture, like it normally is in cases where only one person is left to tell the story of how another person met her demise. That's a prosecutors's job, but he doesn't have to provide motive down to the exact detail. He can't, even though I'm sure he'd like to. But he can suggest what might have happened.

I respect that you think the state's case doesn't make sense, but I disagree wholeheartedly. It makes much more sense to me than OP's ever-changing version, where he is both incredibly unstable and vulnerable on his stumps, yet like Superman, goes charging toward a perceived threat to save his girlfriend and then "accidentally" pulls the trigger four times striking her with enough aim to kill her from all three wounds.

 

[TorisMom003]

You've misunderstood him. He said a movement as opposed to a mere sound, that's to say the sound of something moving. I don't think you can say that he definitely meant something else because if I'd heard the sound of something moving in the room, that's what I'd say as well if I wanted to be brief.

You've also misunderstood his point about the wooden rack. He stated clearly that he wasn't altogether st'ure what he'd heard, but in his panic he feared it might be the sound of the door about to open. He only realised with hindsight that it must have been the magazine rack. In the state of mind that he was in and with events moving so rapidly, he didn't have time to interpret it.

That seems to be the case quite often. OP is so often misunderstood. Instead of him telling lies on the stand (committing perjury) he is just misunderstood.

OP wasn't in such a state of mind that he didn't have time to think about the noise coming from the toilet room but yet when it comes to firing his gun 4 times through the toilet room door knowing full well how small that toilet room is he didn't have time to think.

Amazing really how he can think clearly when it suits him but not when it doesn't suit him or help his case.

MOO

 

[aa9511]

I used to think Oscar really did panic after he shot her, by panic I mean some kind of worry for her.

But I am thinking more and more that the only thing he was worried about immediately afterwards were the consequences for himself.

I think about when he told Nel that he went upstairs while they took her away because he "knew she had already passed." Except, he knew she had already passed as soon as he saw her through the door, IMO.

Besides, it was in his favor that she be dead. Would he really have wanted that she survive and lock him on in jail? I'm sure he wished the whole thing had never happened in the first place, but I don't think at that moment, opening the door and finding her, that he would have wanted her to be alive.

The phone testimony from this morning - I don't believe him. I believe he took her phone b/c he wanted to look on it and make sure she hadn't called anyone or texted anyone regarding the situation (fight). That's why he picked up her phone.

IMO he already had his prosthetics in and he already knew it was Reeva. So take out all the time for that from his story.

Baba called. He knew people would be coming soon. He had to break the door down and get her out to make it seem like he was actually worried about her. Also to check her phone. This is when he "didn't have time to think." With the sound of the gunshots and also Baba calling, he knew he had to act fast.

JMO.

 

[Britlaws]

Nel seems to have pulled this tiny scrap of a "State Case" out of his....... ear!


IF Nel is contending that this Mythical Meal (Last Supper) at 2:00AM which was an occasion for an argument then shooting.

WHERE are the damned dishes?

Did the Cops find dirty plates, bowls cutlery in the bedroom? Fast food cartons? Disposable plates etc? Food scraps spread around perhaps? Were the spots on the duvet tested for Gravy? lol
In turn was the kitchen searched for same signs of a recent meal? The remnants of that meal? Particularly food spilled or thrown around during an argument?

Nel's case does not make sense, and so is not true (Nel's Rule)

Haven't you ever eaten straight out of the fridge late at night? Some cheese slices, a few vegetables. They didn't have to have a food fight!

 

[fox1lady]

Has OP ever explained the lack of conversation between him and Reeva from the time he woke up to the time he apparently heard the noise and went on his shooting spree? I still find it really hard to believe that he didn't speak to Reeva and ask her if she had heard anything.

Also that he didn't mention anything about her not bringing the fans in, surely he would have had a go about her leaving the doors open whilst they were both asleep... unless she hadn't gone to sleep! Not that I would expect others do this but I quite often give a running commentary to my partner "just nipping to the loo".. "just going downstairs for some water, do you want some".

The other thing I can't believe is that he told Reeva to phone the police but didn't once check that she had heard him, he didn't ever say "Reeva have you phoned the police yet" instead of keep shouting "phone the police". It is all just too unbelievable to me.