Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[patCee]

I posted earlier today about seeing clearly, through the crack in the door, someone moving behind the door, a yellow colour. Later I saw a man standing to the side of the door in a high vis jacket with yellow on it.

The Stipps (Mr I think) said there was also a fainter light in the toilet. He was pressed hard on this by Roux.

If there was a faint light in the toilet it would have been easy for OP to aim correctly at RS moving inside.
The crack that OP made.

Added for clarity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7H9rQ72yE around 22.30

 

[HauntsForHope]

The geologists testimony is painfully unnecessary.

 

[steveml]

That's all very well, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that the bat was used earlier as well.

I agree, from theories on WS it doesn't rule it out, but I've not seen the PT make this claim at all during the trial. It would be very odd for the PT to have this in mind and choose never to mention it.

 

[G.bng]

Molly is indeed correct.

Lt Col Vermeulen not only agreed that the bat hits were after the gunshots, but also demonstrated this is court.

10:31 to 11:40 (transcript link)

Link

I recall Vermeulen demonstrating one bat mark that had hit over a bullet hole but not the other bat mark V found (iirc he only fount 2 bat marks and the high up disputed one) because there wasn't a corresponding bullet hole. But I also recall V didn't discard the bat could have been used on the door earlier but that it didn't leave a mark. In any case I thought DT and PT had agreed shots - bats which is my thought too.

 

[Viper]

The court reporters, the media, the defense team and the also the Guardian reporters understand Vermeulen's testimony.
What else do you need? We're again going down the same road as we did with the iPod/Whatsapp/messages.

Quote:
Vermeulen did endorse Pistorius's account that the shooting through the door came before the bat was used, a boost for the defence's timeline.

Link

I find it senseless to continue trying to explain this. If folks choose to ignore the information that others provide, it is senseless.

So go ahead and believe that you are correct. But what follows that is a 19 minute gap between when the gunshots killed Reeva and when OP called Stander and Netcare. How would anyone be able to account for what OP was doing all of that time? Please, go ahead and tell me because OP did not. And how would anyone be able to say that OP was having an argument with himself in both a man's and a woman's voice during that 19 minutes of time?

While we are at it, please tell me how it is that in the crime scene photos, according to OP himself, the curtains are open way to far, the fan is directly in front of the door blocking OPs ability to go out in the patio and cry for help, the patio doors are closed as well, the lights in the bedroom and on the patio are on...

And tell me also how when upon hearing the bathroom window open OP armed himself and went after the intruders, but how did Reeva get from the window in to the WC, slam the door, lock the door, empty her bladder, finish up, pull up her shorts and do all of those things before OP murdered her...

I'll wait.

 

[aa9511]

Added for clarity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7H9rQ72yE around 22.30

Thank you for posting this as well as the time.

Did that crack result from Oscar hitting the door with the bat?

 

[soozieqtips]

"Your expertise [in the audio test] was wielding the cricket bat?" Nel asked Dixon.

Dixon replied: "My part of that test was to wield the cricket bat to produce the sound."

Under questioning by Nel, Dixon conceded the tests had to be done a second time because of problems with the first test, and they were recorded by a music producer who had no experience in recording gunshots.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ness-oscar-pistorius-trial-grilled-prosecutor

Just laughable.

 

[liesbeth]

The court reporters, the media, the defense team and the also the Guardian reporters understand Vermeulen's testimony.
What else do you need? We're again going down the same road as we did with the iPod/Whatsapp/messages.

Quote:
Vermeulen did endorse Pistorius's account that the shooting through the door came before the bat was used, a boost for the defence's timeline.

Link

Vermeulen said that the door must have been broken open after the shooting because there was a crack running through one of the bullet holes. This is not the same as saying that the only time the bat was used was after the shooting.

 

[BlueShoe]

I am still confused about this because I thought there was some possibility that the shots were before the panels were ripped out of the door but not necessarily before the bat strikes. It may have been during Nel's redirect ?
I keep meaning to go through all this testimony again to get it clear in my mind

I vaguely recall something about the possibility that the panels were pried off instead of being bashed off using the cricket bat. I thought the Prosecution was setting up a case for first noises=cricket bat or other bangs. Second noises=gunshots. Door panels then pried off with little noise, not heard by anyone.

 

[Magdalyn]

Are we really going to go down the rabbit hole of debating RD's opinion on anything other than....forensic geology?

Forensic geology is the study of evidence relating to minerals, oil, petroleum, and other materials found in the Earth, used to answer questions raised by the legal system.

Did he render any opinion of a forensically geological nature?

When he was in LE, did he have any specialized forensic training? Was he a trained evidence technician?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I find it senseless to continue trying to explain this. If folks choose to ignore the information that others provide, it is senseless.



So go ahead and believe that you are correct. But what follows that is a 19 minute gap between when the gunshots killed Reeva and when OP called Stander and Netcare. How would anyone be able to account for what OP was doing all of that time? Please, go ahead and tell me because OP did not. And how would anyone be able to say that OP was having an argument with himself in both a man's and a woman's voice during that 19 minutes of time?



While we are at it, please tell me how it is that in the crime scene photos, according to OP himself, the curtains are open way to far, the fan is directly in front of the door blocking OPs ability to go out in the patio and cry for help, the patio doors are closed as well, the lights in the bedroom and on the patio are on...



And tell me also how when upon hearing the bathroom window open OP armed himself and went after the intruders, but how did Reeva get from the window in to the WC, slam the door, lock the door, empty her bladder, finish up, pull up her shorts and do all of those things before OP murdered her...



I'll wait.

IMO it simply doesn't matter much. Reminds me of the Jodi Arais trial where folks were arguing if the gunshot or knife came first. Round and round .....round...again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[aoibhinn]

Capt. Mangena left open the possibility OP shot from his hip/waist wearing his legs. I think in one of his evolving versions late last week, before changing it back, OP described shooting with a bent arm.

Indeed he did. During the morning testimony he agreed that he had his arm bent and when he returned in the afternoon he'd obviously realised the implications of what he'd said (doh!) and changed his testimony to arm extended.

 

[aa9511]

Vermeulen said that the door must have been broken open after the shooting because there was a crack running through one of the bullet holes. This is not the same as saying that the only time the bat was used was after the shooting.

Thank you, I think you answered my question too.

So regarding the cracks - all cracks/broken panels occured after the shooting, is this confirmed?

I'm trying to determine if any of the cracks or any broken part could have occured before the shooting?

TIA.

 

[patCee]

Thank you for posting this as well as the time.

Did that crack result from Oscar hitting the door with the bat?

I believe so, it an uneven split on the weaker part where the panel is joined to the frame of the door.

 

[liesbeth]

Mr & Mrs van der Merwe. But I thought that this related to someone crying, which I don't equate with screaming.

I cannot be sure about this because IIRC Mrs vdM testified in Afrikaans, so there may be a linguistic or translation issue.

Mrs. vd Merwe said that her husband had told her that Oscar was crying like a woman. The Afrikaans word used is "huil" and it means crying, never screaming.

 

[minor4th]

Thank you for posting this as well as the time.



Did that crack result from Oscar hitting the door with the bat?

Yes, it did.

 

[DebinGA]

Are we really going to go down the rabbit hole of debating RD's opinion on anything other than....forensic geology?



Did he render any opinion of a forensically geological nature?

When he was in LE, did he have any specialized forensic training? Was he a trained evidence technician?

Yes, Dixon was brought a sample of varnish on the cubicle door. Other than that, his expertise seems to have broadened when Roux couldn't find legitimate sound/pathology experts willing to support OP's fairytale.

 

[Magdalyn]

The geologists testimony is painfully unnecessary.

Is this the best 'expert' they could find to prove OP's Accidental Involuntary Self Defense defense?


:scared:

 

[Viper]

BBM. How can Mr. Dixon be sure that OP kicked the door. The panels were on the bathroom floor after OP broke open the door. It is possible that he stepped on the door panels. He could also have used the legs to hit the door. (There was damage visible on the legs on the photographs.) I wonder why the kicking of the door is so important to the defense?

BIB. Mr. Nel touched on this issue yesterday. That OP killed Reeva, broke apart the door, and carried her downstairs is true; the rest of his fairy tale is not true. And so it seems that the DT is desperate to find anything, any infinitesimal thing, that they can point to and say, "We proved that this small detail of his version is true." Even a single kick to the door.

 

[minor4th]

Are we really going to go down the rabbit hole of debating RD's opinion on anything other than....forensic geology?







Did he render any opinion of a forensically geological nature?



When he was in LE, did he have any specialized forensic training? Was he a trained evidence technician?

He was Vermuelen's commander in the "materials" investigation section. He is apparently a certified tool mark examiner, whereas Vermuelen was not.

So he's qualified to examine the marks on the door and give expert testimony on those issues.

I have no idea why they were also talking about wound ballistics though.