Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[BritsKate]

Witness 12: Johannes Vermeulen

Position: State forensic analyst.

Testimony summary: Toilet door was brought in and Vermeulen demonstrated angle at which a cricket bat was most likely swung at it, which produced marks consistent with Pistorius not having his prosthetic limbs on. Evidence consistent with shots being fired through door before door was broken down by cricket bat.

Questions arising: Door sustained new marks while in police custody; chips from the door were missing; police failed to investigate mark which defence claimed was caused by Pistorius trying to kick in door with prosthesis.

Defence says: Pistorius had his legs on while using the bat, and produced a higher mark on the door; Pistorius would have been unable to maintain necessary balance to swing bat on his stumps.
______________________________
Shots before door broken down by whatever means it was broken down. 3.17: State says bangs heard were gunshots. Defence says these were the bat strikes. Defence hasn't explained why no one heard the gunshots Oscar claims to have fired at 3.12. State has alluded to the possibility of the door being struck to instill fear (which in turn could account for earlier bangs).

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...es-case-against-oscar-pistorius/#.U06VxPldWMM

 

[minor4th]

Vermeulen said that the door must have been broken open after the shooting because there was a crack running through one of the bullet holes. This is not the same as saying that the only time the bat was used was after the shooting.

He also said the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

 

[Suthrnqt]

IMO it simply doesn't matter much. Reminds me of the Jodi Arais trial where folks were arguing if the gunshot or knife came first. Round and round .....round...again.


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So true. Kinda like the chicken and the egg.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So true. Kinda like the chicken and the egg.

I'm satisfied there was a woman screaming, she was shot dead. The dead don't scream.

I like to keep it simple and use common sense.


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[Gbtaketwo]

That's ambitious!

The only other really long trials I've watched were OJ and Jodi Arias, and as the weeks and months drag on, it is hard to keep it all clear and remember exactly which witness said what.

It would indeed be ambitious ,fortunately I was just referring to the states batman but whilst I am at it as I have plenty of spare time I would also like to go over Mrs Stipp's evidence again .

 

[minor4th]

BBM. How can Mr. Dixon be sure that OP kicked the door. The panels were on the bathroom floor after OP broke open the door. It is possible that he stepped on the door panels. He could also have used the legs to hit the door. (There was damage visible on the legs on the photographs.) I wonder why the kicking of the door is so important to the defense?

He covered this in his testimony and said that it would take much more force than stepping on or stumbling over the panel to cause the mark and for the varnish to rub off onto OP's sock like it did.

I think the only reason kicking the door is important is because that has always been part of OP's account since his bail statement. The more things about his account that can be independently corroborated, the more credibility it gives the account.

 

[Carmelita]

One of the last things OP claimed during cross was that black talons are what's usually used with "his firearm". Liar, if we believe Dixon who said they were so hard to get that they only used black talons for the shots-through-the wood door test/s, and more easily obtained Rangers for the sound test/s.

I doubt that this is a lie. Many people use two types of ammunition. One for range shooting, one for protection and actually a third for hunters who use specific ammunition suited to their game.

The gun Oscar used seems to have been his gun for personal safety, it would make sense that he would keep it loaded with bullets that were capable of doing a lot of damage.

If I am at the range I use cheap bullets, but at home I have hollow points that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at an intruder.

 

[BritsKate]

I'm satisfied there was a woman screaming, she was shot dead. The dead don't scream.

I like to keep it simple and use common sense.


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No. They apparently turn into men who scream like women who don't scream who have never screamed like that in their lives who don't scream but cry like men.

(And if it sounds I'm being snarky...I really am. I don't get how anyone could possibly buy that. One different theory, sure. But all of them? Really?)

 

[liesbeth]

Thank you, I think you answered my question too.

So regarding the cracks - all cracks/broken panels occured after the shooting, is this confirmed?

I'm trying to determine if any of the cracks or any broken part could have occured before the shooting?

TIA.

Vermeulen only pointed out one crack running through one of the bullet holes. This crack was below the door handle. And it was not made directly by the cricket bat but rather by the act of breaking the panels away.

The damage to the door made by the cricket bat (identified by Vermeulen and Dixon) is higher up above the door handle.

Here you can see the bullet holes and the crack Vermeulen pointed out running through bullet hole D.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27018395

And here you can see Vermeulen showing how the door was broken.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/13/oscar-pistorius-trial-bad-wielding-moment-crucial

...and the bat used as a lever to break the door.
http://www.heraldlive.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Oscar6.jpg

 

[aa9511]

D: There were sufficient wood splinters in the arm...person's arm must have been quite close to the door...

I just picture Reeva standing in front of the door and leaning against the door with her arms, and palms of her hand on the door, and pleading with Oscar (to calm down).

I picture Oscar saying "get the f*** out." He wanted to her to open the door. I think he wanted to take the cell phones away from her, either to check something on it or to make sure she didn't try to call police or call/text anyone.

She wouldn't open the door, out of fear of him and the state of mind he was in.

Oscar can't contain himself. He either goes and gets the gun, or he has the gun already with him (used as a threatening tool beforehand).

He shoots her in the hip, she puts her arms down instinctively, turns to the side to shield herself, and the rest goes from there.

JMO.

 

[DebinGA]

OP kicking the door is only important for the DT if his door kicks were post-murder, because it's vital to his defense that he felt vulnerable and terrified because he was on his stumps. I believe the Stipps that the bathroom light was clearly ON around 3:00 when they immediately looked out to see where the first loud bangs had come from. It must be pitch black in the bathroom for several minutes after the bangs for OP's story to be reasonably true, but it wasn't dark.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Well it's been agreed by both sides that he was at least not wearing his legs when he shot through the door.

And I agree that the sock evidence isn't huge, but it's another piece of the overall picture - it supports OP's version of kicking the door and it's also something that Vermuelen completely failed to investigate.

This is the thing I am not yet convinced of one way or another .State said in the beginning legs were on, their ballistics guy left the door open right at the end of his testimony that he could have been wearing them and crouching and shooting from the hip and then the other day whilst being crossed examined OP stated he was crouched or words to that effect
Nel made a point of putting this comment on the record . He obviously wanted it on the record for a reason.
I think there is only around 8" or 10" difference in height between OP with and without his legs on which is not a huge height difference IMO
So I think I will wait until Nel's final closing arguments before making my mind up on this

 

[liesbeth]

He also said the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

No, he said the gunshots happened before the door was broken open. It is not the same thing as saying the bat was used just that one time after the shots were fired.

 

[G.bng]

Yes, I think this is something that lots of people are overlooking. The gun shots occurred BEFORE the cricket bat strikes. If the two sets of noises correlate with the Stipps sequence of events,then this evidence really confirms the Defense case more so than the Prosections.

The Prosecution will either have to explain what made the noises at 3:05 am. Their case is that they were neither gun shots or a cricket bat striking the bathroom door at that time. Also, they will have to explain why no ear witnesses heard the cricket bat strikes shortly after the gun shots at 3:17 am.

This seems to be the biggest hole in the Prosecutions case. Yet Nel has mentioned he will address these issues, so he obviously has an explanation...

(edited to correct a spelling mistake)

I'm missing something. I thought PT already conceded shots-bats at the time or not long after Vermeulen the same as conceding OP was likely on stumps when he shot. If I am wrong then Nel's either has something up his sleeve or I seem to recall him inferring several times during the trial that the PT's case is having to adapt as the DT disclose evidence the PT didn't had no knowledge of before this time.

 

[Viper]

Witness 12: Johannes Vermeulen

Position: State forensic analyst.

Testimony summary: Toilet door was brought in and Vermeulen demonstrated angle at which a cricket bat was most likely swung at it, which produced marks consistent with Pistorius not having his prosthetic limbs on. Evidence consistent with shots being fired through door before door was broken down by cricket bat.

Questions arising: Door sustained new marks while in police custody; chips from the door were missing; police failed to investigate mark which defence claimed was caused by Pistorius trying to kick in door with prosthesis.

Defence says: Pistorius had his legs on while using the bat, and produced a higher mark on the door; Pistorius would have been unable to maintain necessary balance to swing bat on his stumps.
______________________________
Shots before door broken down by whatever means it was broken down. 3.17: State says bangs heard were gunshots. Defence says these were the bat strikes. Defence hasn't explained why no one heard the gunshots Oscar claims to have fired at 3.12. State has alluded to the possibility of the door being struck to instill fear (which in turn could account for earlier bangs).

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...es-case-against-oscar-pistorius/#.U06VxPldWMM

Again that is a reporter's take on one or two sentences of his testimony. If you read the transcript what follows is him saying that the two marks on the door were consistant with OP using the bat to bang on the door "to scare Reeva." That is saying that the bat strike sounds came before OP murdered Reeva. He also goes on to testify that it is not scientifically possible to determine which came first, the two bat strikes or the four bullets. That last piece is easy to understand; neither of the two bat marks have a bullet hole going through them, so it is impossible to say which came first. One of the panels was broken out of the door and it tore threw a bullet hole; tearing or prying a panel out using the tip of the bat is what the expert was describing.

 

[soozieqtips]

Love this bit.

Nel asks: "Are you a sound expert?"

Dixon says his evidence was "sound", but Nel blasts him:
"So your expertise was wielding a cricket bat!"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-recap-updates-3418342

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'm missing something. I thought PT already conceded shots-bats at the time or not long after Vermeulen the same as conceding OP was likely on stumps when he shot. If I am wrong then Nel's either has something up his sleeve or I seem to recall him inferring several times during the trial that the PT's case is having to adapt as the DT disclose evidence the PT didn't had no knowledge of before this time.

I think Nel may well have something up his sleeve .If I remember rightly Nel
had it put on the record that OP was crouched or crouching whilst holding his gun in either the corridor or bathroom .
Must be a reason for that IMO

 

[BritsKate]

Thank you, I think you answered my question too.

So regarding the cracks - all cracks/broken panels occured after the shooting, is this confirmed?

I'm trying to determine if any of the cracks or any broken part could have occured before the shooting?

TIA.

I don't believe that's been confirmed and I don't know how it could be determined. It's clear the shots were before the door itself was broken down.

Whether there was some cracking or breaking before or after the shooting would be difficult to pinpoint, to my mind - it's a difference of only minutes and the shots alone would have damaged the door. But I think if Oscar were able to get to Reeva because of a crack or break in the door I believe this would be a much different case.

I'm of the opinion he shot because he couldn't get to her though.

JMO

 

[minor4th]

I'm missing something. I thought PT already conceded shots-bats at the time or not long after Vermeulen the same as conceding OP was likely on stumps when he shot. If I am wrong then Nel's either has something up his sleeve or I seem to recall him inferring several times during the trial that the PT's case is having to adapt as the DT disclose evidence the PT didn't had no knowledge of before this time.

The state has not conceded that the gunshots were the first sounds heard by the Stipps. The state gives no explanation for what those sounds were, but argues that the second sounds were the gunshots.

 

[aa9511]

N: You cannot come to court and say I did this. You have to take the court thru the process and show us what you did....am I right?

D: What I've testified on....result of what other experts testified to, and my own thinking....I am not a ballistic expert or expert in many other fields....

And now he's off about geology with a passion, Lol, and Nel's letting him go!

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh: