Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[james83]

I have to run but I have to disagree with the criticism of it being possible for Oscar to have been "screaming like a woman".

I fell from a 12 foot high concrete slab and broke some bones. The fall was purely accidental caused by a small child jumping on me in a playful way. I screamed on the way down and I remember getting up and say “what is wrong with my voice?” I was screaming and didn’t know it. Oscar was in an extreme situation (regardless of what anyone believes the situation was) how his voice was modulated during that time is simply an unknown and he could have very easily been shrill and sounded like a "woman".

Is it just me though or would the natural reaction to that situation be to shout "REEVA" over and over again?, he can not say he know's for certain it's her in his version, after all he didn't even check his bedroom door.

 

[steveml]

I find it senseless to continue trying to explain this. If folks choose to ignore the information that others provide, it is senseless.

So go ahead and believe that you are correct. But what follows that is a 19 minute gap between when the gunshots killed Reeva and when OP called Stander and Netcare. How would anyone be able to account for what OP was doing all of that time? Please, go ahead and tell me because OP did not. And how would anyone be able to say that OP was having an argument with himself in both a man's and a woman's voice during that 19 minutes of time?

While we are at it, please tell me how it is that in the crime scene photos, according to OP himself, the curtains are open way to far, the fan is directly in front of the door blocking OPs ability to go out in the patio and cry for help, the patio doors are closed as well, the lights in the bedroom and on the patio are on...

And tell me also how when upon hearing the bathroom window open OP armed himself and went after the intruders, but how did Reeva get from the window in to the WC, slam the door, lock the door, empty her bladder, finish up, pull up her shorts and do all of those things before OP murdered her...

I'll wait.

If both the PT and DT accept that the the bat noises were first, I'm fine with that. They've both accepted that the gunshot noises were first and as such I'm also fine with that.

I don't know exactly what happened in the time between the shooting and phoning Netcare. I was waiting for Nel to help me on that one. Only Nel can answer why he didn't pursue his line of inquiry further. As things stand we are left with a lack of information, and so is Judge Masipa.

I cannot understand why OP made the decisions he did at the time of the alleged intruder, although it's very clear that he made wrong ones. I'm not able to confidently interpret OP's state of mind regarding this, and will leave that in the Judge's capable hands.

With regard to the integrity of the crime scene, I would not take anything that appears in the bedroom photos on face value. We know the SAPS have moved some items out of their original position, and we also know the SAPS went further than this in the bedroom and stole items. The PT's claim of an argument with intent to kill Reeva is not convincing enough for me to say that there was probably a fight.

We've still yet to hear the remaining defense witnesses therefore I'll reserve my judgement regarding the witness hearing arguing until this has been concluded.

There are also a few questions which weren't raised by Nel that concern me somewhat :-

If there was any evidence that OP used the cricket bat as a weapon against Reeva, why was this not addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

If OP had an available panic button/s why was this not addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

If there is any dispute regarding events after OP carried Reeva downstairs, why was this not addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

If OP had fought with Reeva, why wasn't the damaged bedroom door with gun pellet hole, air rifle or any other specific area addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

 

[nastasya]

The state have said all along that OP took aimed over the basin and I think Nel mentioned that in cross exam of OP .
All shots were in the left hand portion of the Toilet room and there was no damage on about 50/60% of the back wall opposite the door which is where you would expect an intruder to be .
Why would OP think they would be by the basin/wc if he thought they were going to burst out at him armed and dangerous

He didn't think at all.

The gun fired on it's own according to OP.

 

[DebinGA]

BBM - Roux promised to show the court evidence that OP screamed like a woman. Not sure if that was after he was going to prove the head shot came first, which he still hasn't proved, but still... maybe he'll remember his promise to prove both those things.

Roux struck out with the head-shot-was-first claim with 2 real pathologists (Perumal and Botha) and 1 fake one (Dixon). So Plan B may be to use his gun expert/s to claim the 4 shots were very, very close together, leaving no time for Reeva to scream. Love to see Capt. Mangena testify again, but not sure there's a rebuttal phase in SA.

 

[aoibhinn]

Reviewing today's x-exam on YouTube. Transcribing some gems

Dixon : Interminable waffle on how he's qualified to testify and how he comes to his conclusions (copy pasta from other experts with stuff he found on the internet to fill the gaps).

Nel : But you gave evidence on sound. Are you a sound expert? Just answer that question.

Dixon : I would hope that the evidence I present is sound, yes?

Nel : Are you a sound expert, sir? Have you received training in decibels and sound?

Dixon : Milady, the tests I undertook where I wielded the cricket bat was purely to determine whether sound made be the bat striking the door could in anyway be confused with the sound made by a gun being fired.

Nel : You're supposed to be expert. What expert method did you use?

Dixon : I made the sound.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the scientific method.

 

[minor4th]

No, he said the gunshots happened before the door was broken open. It is not the same thing as saying the bat was used just that one time after the shots were fired.

Vermuelen's testimony - direct exam:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

At around 40:45 - 43:45 Vermuelen testifies that the cricket bat was used to bash the door and that the cricket bat broke through the door with one of the hits. If you keep watching, he says he only found 2 cricket bat marks.

Vermuelen cross exam:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

4:25 Nel says that it's his case that OP was not on his prostheses when he fired the shots

Vermuelen further cross exam:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

At 52:46 the following exchange between Roux and Vermuelen:

Roux: When we look at this door, it is consistent, and I think it's conclusive in fact - if you disagree we can go through it - that when the shots were fired, the door was intact. It was not broken.

Vermuelen: That is true, Mi'Lady

Roux: What is your view? When was the door hit with the bat - before or after the shots?

Vermuelen: M'Lady, I would say the door was hit after the shots. ...if you look at the crack down here, it enters this bullet hole on the one side and then exits on the other side... so what this tells me is there had to be a hole in the door before this piece broke off, otherwise the crack would have gone straight through.

Vermuelen also says that when the cricket bat hit the door and broke through it, the cricket bat was then used to pry open the panels from the door

 

[BritsKate]

I have to run but I have to disagree with the criticism of it being possible for Oscar to have been "screaming like a woman".

I fell from a 12 foot high concrete slab and broke some bones. The fall was purely accidental caused by a small child jumping on me in a playful way. I screamed on the way down and I remember getting up and say “what is wrong with my voice?” I was screaming and didn’t know it. Oscar was in an extreme situation (regardless of what anyone believes the situation was) how his voice was modulated during that time is simply an unknown and he could have very easily been shrill and sounded like a "woman".

Okay...let's say the witnesses did in fact hear Oscar screaming like a woman. Why was he screaming for nearly 12 minutes before he states he fired?

Here are my options:
1) First bangs were Oscar hitting the door and Reeva screaming in fright before the second set of bangs, the gunshots.
2) First bangs were shots and Oscar screaming, like a woman, after killing Reeva. He waits 17 minutes to break down the door and a further few minutes to call netcare.
3) First bangs unknown and Oscar screaming at an intruder for a full 12 minutes before firing. When he stated repeatedly he didn't have time to think and never intended to shoot.

Forget any evidence...just going on common sense, which seems more reasonable to you?

 

[zwiebel]

I just heard an interview on BBC Radio 4 with the 'man who made the televising of this trial possible'. George somebody? They are his company's cameras in court.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

I couldn't get back to my computer in time to post as it took place, but it was interesting. Although I wouldn't rate his chances against Nel, George did make a good attempt at answering the interviewer's questions about whether he had turned the trial of the killing of a young woman into 'entertainment'.

He said people are 'being entertained' by the trial, but he doesn't think the trial's been turned into entertainment. He also said he thinks it is helpful that SA public is now getting to understand its own laws in a way he thinks many people did not before. Educational.

He came across as terribly English, terribly posh and a bit patronizing, but made some interesting points, I think. Also mentioned other trials - so maybe Dewani? Anyway, I think the interview can be replayed, at the link.

 

[nastasya]

Again that is a reporter's take on one or two sentences of his testimony. If you read the transcript what follows is him saying that the two marks on the door were consistant with OP using the bat to bang on the door "to scare Reeva." That is saying that the bat strike sounds came before OP murdered Reeva. He also goes on to testify that it is not scientifically possible to determine which came first, the two bat strikes or the four bullets. That last piece is easy to understand; neither of the two bat marks have a bullet hole going through them, so it is impossible to say which came first. One of the panels was broken out of the door and it tore threw a bullet hole; tearing or prying a panel out using the tip of the bat is what the expert was describing.

:goodpost:

Here's a pic to illustrate what you just said.

 

[james83]

Alex Crawford ‏@AlexCrawfordSky 3 hrs
#oscartrial Dixon says black talons were not used on the door tests as there was a difficulty getting them

Alex Crawford ‏@AlexCrawfordSky 3 hrs
#oscartrial Sky did a test with black talon bullets - and we were supplied with them within a day

 

[aa9511]

Nel is pinning expert to give expert testimony and, oh my gosh...

D: I went on the internet to listen to sounds....

Nel infuriated and judge says : Mr Nel, restrain yourself.

OMG. Unbelievable.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

He didn't think at all.

The gun fired on it's own according to OP.

In OP language yes lol
but
I don't want to believe that for even a second as I would hate to think of him getting off all charges with an automatism defence,for this reason alone I refuse to believe anything other than he took aim and fired.
It would be a travesty of justice if he was aquitted under such circumstances bearing in mind he was claiming putative self defence in the beginning.

 

[nastasya]

V

Vermuelen also says that when the cricket bat hit the door and broke through it, the cricket bat was then used to pry open the panels from the door

Yes, therrefore Vermuelen's testimony is that the prying which caused the crack through the bullet hole came last.

This implies that the hit from the cricket bat is NOT was broke the panel out of the door completely, otherwise there would be no need to pry the panel out.

 

[minor4th]

Alex Crawford ‏@AlexCrawfordSky 3 hrs
#oscartrial Dixon says black talons were not used on the door tests as there was a difficulty getting them

Alex Crawford ‏@AlexCrawfordSky 3 hrs
#oscartrial Sky did a test with black talon bullets - and we were supplied with them within a day

Mangena said the same thing as Dixon - all their testing could not be done with black talons because they were no longer made and were difficult to obtain

 

[BritsKate]

Mangena said the same thing as Dixon - all their testing could not be done with black talons because they were no longer made and were difficult to obtain

He said that the state had carried out tests using the Black Talon ammunition that Pistorius favoured, and they believed that the reason Steenkamp had bruising on her back was due to 'Bullet B' missing Steenkamp, hitting the wall and sending fragments ricocheting.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-03-19-pistorius-trial-week-two-day-three/#.U06puPldWMM

 

[minor4th]

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-03-19-pistorius-trial-week-two-day-three/#.U06puPldWMM

Some of the tests he was able to use black talons - but other tests he could not use black talons because they didn't have enough available.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Vermuelen's testimony - direct exam:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

At around 40:45 - 43:45 Vermuelen testifies that the cricket bat was used to bash the door and that the cricket bat broke through the door with one of the hits. If you keep watching, he says he only found 2 cricket bat marks.

Vermuelen cross exam:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

4:25 Nel says that it's his case that OP was not on his prostheses when he fired the shots

Vermuelen further cross exam:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

At 52:46 the following exchange between Roux and Vermuelen:



Vermuelen also says that when the cricket bat hit the door and broke through it, the cricket bat was then used to pry open the panels from the door

Thanks for the links . Do I remember rightly Vermuelen took the stand for a second time ? If so do you have a link for when that was ,I can't remember what that was about now .

 

[Viper]

Well OP had his chance on the stand. He failed. Both of his expert witnesses failed. I've read about a case that his ballistic expert testified in and twisted his opinion to match what the defendant needed; he failed, the guy was convicted of murder. Who is going to save the day for OP now? A close neighbor that slept through all of it but woke to OP yelling help? Shaking my head.

 

[wb180]

Well OP had his chance on the stand. He failed. Both of his expert witnesses failed. I've read about a case that his ballistic expert testified in and twisted his opinion to match what the defendant needed; he failed, the guy was convicted of murder. Who is going to save the day for OP now? A close neighbor that slept through all of it but woke to OP yelling help? Shaking my head.

OP will be saved by the infamous fatal flaw!

 

[minor4th]

Just listened to the sound test of gunshots and cricket bat hits.

I don't think it matters that this witness is not a sound expert or that the conditions are exactly the same. The point was sufficiently made that cricket bat hitting the door is very loud and sounds similar to gunshots. If you didn't hear the side by side comparison, it is reasonable to believe that ear witnesses could mistake the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door for gunshots.

There's no evidence of anything else making three loud bangs that sound like gunshots, other than the cricket bat.