Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[steveml]

Okay...let's say the witnesses did in fact hear Oscar screaming like a woman. Why was he screaming for nearly 12 minutes before he states he fired?

Here are my options:
1) First bangs were Oscar hitting the door and Reeva screaming in fright before the second set of bangs, the gunshots.
2) First bangs were shots and Oscar screaming, like a woman, after killing Reeva. He waits 17 minutes to break down the door and a further few minutes to call netcare.
3) First bangs unknown and Oscar screaming at an intruder for a full 12 minutes before firing. When he stated repeatedly he didn't have time to think and never intended to shoot.

Forget any evidence...just going on common sense, which seems more reasonable to you?

BBM

It could almost fit, but common sense doesn't suggest to me that OP would scream for help before he had used either the bat or the gun.
That's the logic we have to apply if we believe Michelle Burger's testimony.

 

[Viper]

I've posted video links and transcribed this on more than one occasion.

What I said is correct. Vermulen very specifically said the gunshots were before the cricket bat hit the door.

If you want to entertain alternate theories that the state is not pursuing and has not even mentioned - feel free. I'm dealing only with what's actually been presented in court.

BIB. That is incorrect. :no:

But I and others here are wiling to concede it just for this moment anyway for the sake of moving on with discussing the case. Because if that one purposefully misrepresented statement is all that is supporting OPs version of events, after considering his pathetic performance and that of his experts, then what does he have? I contend he has nothing to support his case, nothing. This whole trial has turned out miserably for him. Does anyone see anything in evidence thus far that unequivocally supports only OPs story, and conversely refutes the state's claims of what OP did? Please share.

 

[BritsKate]

So here's where I'm at after several pages of bat/gun/gun/bat:

We all agree the door was hit by the bat.
We all agree the bullets went into the door before the door was broken down.

Defence states the bat was only used to break the door down and that happened after the gunshots. They put this time at 3:17.

We don't all agree with the defence assertion.

Am I right?

 

[TorisMom003]

Did not Mrs. Burger say that the male help help help sounded mocking in tone to her? If so, then it does explain why OP would yell out help before using either the cricket bat or the gun. Reeva was screaming for help while OP was mocking her.

 

[BritsKate]

BBM

It could almost fit, but common sense doesn't suggest to me that OP would scream for help before he had used either the bat or the gun.
That's the logic we have to apply if we believe Michelle Burger's testimony.

It still makes sense if one concludes Oscar is a cold-blooded, malicious murderer who mocked his victims last screams for help before killing her.

 

[Insp.Dots]

BIB is not a proven fact.

Do not dismiss the possibility that the bat was used more than once. Both before the shots, and after the shots. It was certainly used afterwards to prise the door panel off, exploiting the weaknesses caused by the earlier strikes.

True, not necessarily proven but importantly, I don t think the State have made enough of a case for it having been used first. This maybe that they want to stick with their theory that the noise at 3.17pm were 'definitely' gun shots and not the cricket bat s the Defence argue. The Defence have always stuck to the Gunshots being just after 3pm. But if they were at 3.17pm how did OP take only 2 minutes to get into the toilet and get Reeva out? IMO The State have to be VERY careful what they say about the earlier sounds or they themselves risk discrediting there own Witnesses accounts. I can only imagine they are hoping to solve all this in Cross examination of the Defence witnesses.
Critical for there case if they want to stick him to Intentional or Pre med. MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

Since Mr. Dixon has been presented as an "expert" by the defense on all of the things that he testified to over the past two days, does this mean that the defense will not be calling a ballistics expert, blood spatter expert, gun expert, sound expert, etc?

If not then OP might want to put his head between his knees and kiss his arse goodbye.

MOO

 

[K.T]

Interesting comment by tweeter about the straight-arm shooting versus crooked-arm position

Alasdair D Murray ‏@Alconcalcia
@Simmoa See my explanation about the kick of a hi-powered pistol in comments here http://bit.ly/1hKOtzL

As someone who has fired high powered pistols, I know that unless you have a straight arm and are fully braced for the recoil of the gun, the bullets could go anywhere if it is fired in quick succession as the first shot will cause your arm to flail violently upwards. He could even be thrown off balance given he was on his stumps, unless he was in the proper 'fire position' which he was trained to be. No way in my opinion could you hit the door four times in a close group, even from 3 metres, if you were anything less than fully prepared for the kick of the weapon, which, by his description of how he was holding the gun when he fired it, he wasn't.

Pistorius says he doesn’t know how he fired, but he says his arm was bent. If it was bent (if not he’s lying, rilly) he has to fight a gun recoil stronger than straight-arm position:

- It’s far more difficult to fire.
- The recoil is even greater
- Takes longer time to aim

So, Steenkamp was screaming while he shot out her hip, Pistorius is re-aiming, and moving arm back to position, another recoil and aiming and moving, another recoil and aiming and moving. Shudder.

 

[TorisMom003]

True, not necessarily proven but importantly, I don t think the State have made enough of a case for it having been used first. This maybe that they want to stick with their theory that the noise at 3.17pm were 'definitely' gun shots and not the cricket bat s the Defence argue. The Defence have always stuck to the Gunshots being just after 3pm. But if they were at 3.17pm how did OP take only 2 minutes to get into the toilet and get Reeva out? IMO The State have to be VERY careful what they say about the earlier sounds or they themselves risk discrediting there own Witnesses accounts. I can only imagine they are hoping to solve all this in Cross examination of the Defence witnesses.
Critical for there case if they want to stick him to Intentional or Pre med. MOO

BBM

Because the cricket bat was already used to hit the door twice, causing the crack that was large enough for OP to simply use his hands to rip the panel out of the door. It wouldn't take OP 2 mins to rip out the panels and drag Reeva from the toilet room.

 

[wb180]

True, not necessarily proven but importantly, I don t think the State have made enough of a case for it having been used first. This maybe that they want to stick with their theory that the noise at 3.17pm were 'definitely' gun shots and not the cricket bat s the Defence argue. The Defence have always stuck to the Gunshots being just after 3pm. But if they were at 3.17pm how did OP take only 2 minutes to get into the toilet and get Reeva out? IMO The State have to be VERY careful what they say about the earlier sounds or they themselves risk discrediting there own Witnesses accounts. I can only imagine they are hoping to solve all this in Cross examination of the Defence witnesses.
Critical for there case if they want to stick him to Intentional or Pre med. MOO

Does really take that long to get someone out of the toilet?

Remember we can't believe OP chain of events as he hasn't been truthful.

 

[wb180]

BBM

Because the cricket bat was already used to hit the door twice, causing the crack that was large enough for OP to simply use his hands to rip the panel out of the door. It wouldn't take OP 2 mins to rip out the panels and drag Reeva from the toilet room.

It mean we don't even know what the heck happened as there is no evidence to support. Do we really believe the key was inside and it dropped for OP to become plasticman? For all we know, he could have the key all along and just opened the door. I mean using the bat on the door could have never open the door anyways.

 

[BritsKate]

Oh wow. So any one of us can be experts for trials??? We can actually get paid big bucks for what we do in our free time? LOL!

We could...but we'd at least have links to prove our assertions instead of 'its on my computer at home'. We'd be alot better imo!

 

[Cherwell]

BBM

Because the cricket bat was already used to hit the door twice, causing the crack that was large enough for OP to simply use his hands to rip the panel out of the door. It wouldn't take OP 2 mins to rip out the panels and drag Reeva from the toilet room.

Absolutely, I was just going to say this. Two minutes is quite a long time. He did not have to go and get the bat, it was right there, and there's no need to believe his elaborate story of going back and forth to the bedroom half a dozen times. I'm tending to believe he did have his legs on throughout.

 

[TipDog]

I think Nel may well have something up his sleeve .If I remember rightly Nel
had it put on the record that OP was crouched or crouching whilst holding his gun in either the corridor or bathroom .
Must be a reason for that IMO

I'm glad this is getting brought up today as I'd almost forgotten it. But when OP said he "kneeled" (I need to go back and listen again, but I could swear that was the word he used), I immediately thought to myself - how does one who is on stumps kneel? (or crouch for that matter, as I may have interpreted the word "crouch" as kneeling; again, I need to go back and listen).

It made zero sense to me. I've long wondered if he had his legs on the entire evening and was never on his stumps.

(Oh, and apologies if someone else in this thread has said something similarly already as I'm just now joining.)

 

[kittychi]

Did not Mrs. Burger say that the male help help help sounded mocking in tone to her? If so, then it does explain why OP would yell out help before using either the cricket bat or the gun. Reeva was screaming for help while OP was mocking her.

BBM: Yes.

 

[TorisMom003]

It mean we don't even know what the heck happened as there is no evidence to support. Do we really believe the key was inside and it dropped for OP to become plasticman? For all we know, he could have the key all along and just opened the door.

That is true as well. Either way, the cracks in the door could have been made before the shot was fired and then the door panels ripped out after the shots were fired.

It also would not take 2 mins to rip out panels, grab a key, open the door and pull Reeva out into the bathroom. Perhaps 2 mins needs to be timed out to see exactly how long of a time that is.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

Question.

If Reeva was shot in the hip (as the State has contended) first and she fell down would her back bend over at the waist? If she was bent over at the waist when the second shot that missed her came into the toilet room and hit the wall behind her, could the fragments of the tile that was shot come back onto her back causing the marks on her back? This would appear to be moving from bottom up to the top, yes?

 

[aa9511]

Interesting comment by tweeter about the straight-arm shooting versus crooked-arm position




Pistorius says he doesn’t know how he fired, but he says his arm was bent. If it was bent (if not he’s lying, rilly) he has to fight a gun recoil stronger than straight-arm position:

- It’s far more difficult to fire.
- The recoil is even greater
- Takes longer time to aim

So, Steenkamp was screaming while he shot out her hip, Pistorius is re-aiming, and moving arm back to position, another recoil and aiming and moving, another recoil and aiming and moving. Shudder.

Oscar was wearing his prosthetics. He was holding the gun with his arms extended straight and down, pointing straight at where he thought Reeva was inside the toilet room.

JMO.

 

[wb180]

Oscar was wearing his prosthetics. He was holding the gun with his arms extended straight and down, pointing straight at where he thought Reeva was inside the toilet room.

JMO.

Wait I thought the angle of the shots disprove this??

 

[Really?]

Are we really going to go down the rabbit hole of debating RD's opinion on anything other than....forensic geology?



Did he render any opinion of a forensically geological nature?

When he was in LE, did he have any specialized forensic training? Was he a trained evidence technician?

Do we have a rabbit hole smilie.....if not, if I may say, I think we need one. moo