Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[katydid23]

This female reporter from SA, on CNN, Robyn something, is so PRO-Oscar it is ridiculous. She just did a report just now saying that Nel attacked Dixon for being a geologist, but didn't really attack his testimony. And she made it sound like he was a credible witness because he had 18 yrs experience with LE. :facepalm:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Here's an article to back you up. :biggrin: It was all part of redirect.

Oscar trial: Expert can't fix sequence of shots, bashing

Thanks for the link .
At least I know I didn't imagine that there was indeed some ambiguity over the bat door shot events .
It is easy to loose yourself in the evidence when it comes in sections at different times in the trial and then of course changes as it goes along .
My interest at the moment is now what was Nel getting at when he had it put on the record about OP crouching IE legs or no legs .
Both Reeva and OP seemed to be dressed (not in PJ's ) it makes me think it is more likely they never went to bed and OP did have his legs on.
If it is not about the legs does anyone else have a theory about why OP crouching is significant to the state . I really can't think of anything else
TIA

 

[aa9511]

Absolutely, I was just going to say this. Two minutes is quite a long time. He did not have to go and get the bat, it was right there, and there's no need to believe his elaborate story of going back and forth to the bedroom half a dozen times. I'm tending to believe he did have his legs on throughout.

ITA.

And let's not forget other things he had to do...like check her cell phone and try to get his mind together and think about what to do. That's where the time went, not going back and forth, not putting his prosethetics on, not checking to see where Reeva was. His time was focused on other things.

When Baba called, he knew he only had a mere minutes,if that. He had to make the necessary phone calls - Netcare - and had to get her out and drag her down so it would seem like it was all an accident and he was really worried about her and wanted to get her help.

JMO.

 

[TorisMom003]

Has OP's sister now taken on his posture when he hears evidence he doesn't want to hear? I noticed that she is sitting with her hands on the sides of her face, covering her eyes, head down with her thumbs under her hair next to (or in) her ears. This is when Mr. Dixon is talking about the shots and where they hit Reeva at during direct from this morning.

 

[weeeva]

That's what I was thinking. She's screaming help and he's yelling back at here "oh help, help, help" in a sarcastic manner

Even if OP knew he was shooting Reeva, I honestly can't imagine that he would be in the frame of mind to make these mocking or sarcastic sounds. I just can't believe that.

 

[zwiebel]

I'm glad this is getting brought up today as I'd almost forgotten it. But when OP said he "kneeled" (I need to go back and listen again, but I could swear that was the word he used), I immediately thought to myself - how does one who is on stumps kneel? (or crouch for that matter, as I may have interpreted the word "crouch" as kneeling; again, I need to go back and listen).

It made zero sense to me. I've long wondered if he had his legs on the entire evening and was never on his stumps.

(Oh, and apologies if someone else in this thread has said something similarly already as I'm just now joining.)

I recollect OP saying that once, briefly. I believe Nel may have missed it, because he spoke about OP crouching later, but never brought up the kneeling comment.

 

[BritsKate]

Wait I thought the angle of the shots disprove this??

Not entirely. Pretty much: it's probable he was on stumps or possible that he was on legs but shooting from the hip. We only really have Oscar's word for the stance he was shooting in. And his word is...well...

(I believe anyway. That part isn't too important to me so I haven't paid it a lot of attention but that's my understanding.)

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Wait I thought the angle of the shots disprove this??

I may be wrong here but I really don't believe that has been proven one way or another .
I am hoping the closing arguments will back this up one way or another .
Just to clarify OP's height only varies between 8 to 10 " with or without his legs .

 

[wb180]

Even if OP knew he was shooting Reeva, I honestly can't imagine that he would be in the frame of mind to make these mocking or sarcastic sounds. I just can't believe that.

Wait so no one has mock you or made any sarcastic remarks to you in an argument before?

 

[TorisMom003]

Even if OP knew he was shooting Reeva, I honestly can't imagine that he would be in the frame of mind to make these mocking or sarcastic sounds. I just can't believe that.

Why not? If someone is willing to shoot and kill someone doesn't it make sense that they are also able and willing to mock them as well? Especially knowing that the cries for help are pointless.

MOO

 

[BritsKate]

Even if OP knew he was shooting Reeva, I honestly can't imagine that he would be in the frame of mind to make these mocking or sarcastic sounds. I just can't believe that.

And that's your right, of course. Thing is a witness testified to it so it either did actually happen or you have to kinda discount the witness entirely.

Remember though this occurred before shots were fired in the State's version. But if the defence version is to be believed that the shots occurred at 3am one must also explain the 20 minutes before the call to netcare.

 

[steveml]

Even if OP knew he was shooting Reeva, I honestly can't imagine that he would be in the frame of mind to make these mocking or sarcastic sounds. I just can't believe that.

A mocking tone being heard 177 metres away is very hard to believe.

 

[aa9511]

Wait I thought the angle of the shots disprove this??

From the image with the rods going through the holes, it definately looks as if the bullets went in on a downward angle, slightly downward.

I have done this action myself - I take my hands and clasp them together, like right where the bottom strap of my bra would be. For me, unfortunately, that ends up being about halfway between my shoulders and my waist. :facepalm:

Than I extend my arms straight outward, and then slightly down.

I don't think the angle would be much different than what it is now.

JMO.

 

[wb180]

A mocking tone being heard 177 metres away is very hard to believe.

But you don't believe her anyways so it doesn't matter.

But a mocking tone is still a tone/sound so if she hear other tone and sounds, why can't she hear a mocking tone.

 

[TorisMom003]

After Nel's cross of Mr. Dixon, I wonder if the judge and her assessors feel that they wasted time and paper taking notes of this "experts" testimony. I know I am having a difficult time believing any of his opinions because of the non expert aspect of his testimony.

 

[BritsKate]

A mocking tone being heard 177 metres away is very hard to believe.

Okay. Discount Burger altogether.

Explain the 17 minute gap between the defence's gunshots and breaking the door down.

And see, that's where I'm at. If I totally discount one witness, or even a bit of evidence we've argued over, I still can't get what the defence is presenting to make sense. I've really tried.

I have to believe Oscar, discount the entire State's case, disregard my own logic, and ignore that there is a huge time gap in the defence's version in which a woman, mistaken for an intruder, was lying in a pool of her own blood while no one did anything to help her or accept that Oscar was screaming like a woman for at least 12 minutes before firing his gun.

 

[Irisha]

Just listened to the sound test of gunshots and cricket bat hits.

I don't think it matters that this witness is not a sound expert or that the conditions are exactly the same. The point was sufficiently made that cricket bat hitting the door is very loud and sounds similar to gunshots. If you didn't hear the side by side comparison, it is reasonable to believe that ear witnesses could mistake the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door for gunshots.

There's no evidence of anything else making three loud bangs that sound like gunshots, other than the cricket bat.

So you as an attorney would accept sound expert evidence from a non expert/layperson in a murder trial for your own client?

 

[Plumeria5]

Hmm...that was a bit painful. I thought he did OK in explaining some of the bullet trajectory information with regard to the magazine rack.
That doesn't say a great deal though, as ballistics was meant to be his least qualified field.

I'm not sure where the DT got him from. I hope they didn't pay too much.

BBM I hope not either but it will be a good tax write off (business loss) on next year's tax return. :blushing:

 

[minor4th]

So you as an attorney would accept sound expert evidence from a non expert/layperson in a murder trial for your own client?

Yes I would trust what I hear with my own ears if it's not something that has to be measured precisely. It's really no different than asking the Stipps and Merwe about the subsequent voices they heard when the sound tests were conducted.

Edit: to clarify, I would object to such a sound test if it went against my client. But if I were the judge it would be meaningful as a demonstration of how loud a cricket bat hitting a door can be and how it compares to the sound of a gunshot

 

[TorisMom003]

When a bullet leaves the barrel of a gun it is going straight, correct? When said bullet enters and then exits something (say a door) it exits and is now tumbling instead of going in a straight line, correct? So the bullet hole in Reeva's hip would not be a circle but instead elongated because of the tumbling of the bullet going through the door but the bullet hole in the door would be a circle because of the straight line from the barrel to the door, correct?

Just making sure that what I am thinking is correct whereas what Mr. Dixon said is incorrect and that Reeva in fact could have been standing facing the door instead of the angle that he has testified to.