Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[BlueShoe]

BBM

Because the cricket bat was already used to hit the door twice, causing the crack that was large enough for OP to simply use his hands to rip the panel out of the door. It wouldn't take OP 2 mins to rip out the panels and drag Reeva from the toilet room.

Also, Isn't the 3:17 time based on the Stipp's clock? The first phone call was made a bit before 3:17 wasn't it? Anyway, it could be more like 3-4 minutes. And we only have Oscar's word for all the happenings before the phone call. He could have called first, and then dragged Reeva out. All we know for certain is that he was about to carry her down the stairs when the others arrived, so the time is somewhat flexible if we don't stick to Oscar's story.

 

[TorisMom003]

Sorry in advance mods, and I hope this is understood how I mean it, but this is really aggravating me to the point that I believe it needs to be noted.

Beginning @ 52:47 in the video I am putting below, the camera angle moves so that the gallery can be seen. Before and after this we have seen close up Reeva's family and friends sitting up, paying attention, without any dramatics on their parts even though they are hearing testimony that has to be unbelievably hard on them. Then we have OP's sister bent over completely where only a small part of her back is showing (white top next to the woman in the white top). Earlier OP's sister was doing the same position that OP has been. Hands covering face, head down, thumbs in and/or near ears. The theatrics that OP's sister is displaying is uncalled for and frankly should not be allowed in court. IMO if she can not control herself and behave in the manner in which one expects in a court of law then she should be asked to leave by the judge.

MOO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7H9rQ72yE#aid=P9pynR-2SDw

 

[BritsKate]

The honest answer is I'm not able to. There too many time unknowns or time speculations to piece together everything.

I want to know how long the screams were and how long the sequence of noises were, nothing specific, just a guesstimate in minutes or seconds would be helpful. None of the 5 witnesses have provided anything at all on this, which is a shame as it's causing huge problems in establishing a credible timeline.

I think the witnesses establish the only credible timeline. Even if we take Oscar's 3:12 account at face value we have to disregard the testimony of all 5 witnesses.

The problem is the defence already conceded those screams in ever stating it was Oscar screaming like a woman. Before he fired his weapon or 20 minutes before he broke the door down. Those screams even according to the defence happened so it's now that much more difficult to refute their testimony.

 

[Viper]

So you as an attorney would accept sound expert evidence from a non expert/layperson in a murder trial for your own client?

BIB. Funny and sad, but that is the level of desperation within the DT right now, being played out live before your very eyes. I'm guessing OP has spent $2M (US) to buy what we are watching unfold.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Again, that is false.

Just because you've heard others repeat it over and over doesn't make it true.

The prying of the wood that put a crack through the bullet hole came last.

OP testified to this. He specifically testified that the first bat hit put a small hole in the door through which he could see Reeva.

Now stop right there.

The bullet holes could have come before this event, or after. There is no way to know because that hole was far above where the bullets struck the door.

All that is knowable is that the panel being ripped out last came after both the bat hits and the bullet holes.

Forget what anybody has told you, or what any expert has said for a moment and look at the photo of the door. This is just common sense. You don't need to be an expert to understand which part of the sequence CAN be determined. The only thing that is known is one bullet hole had one crack through it and the panels were ripped out last.

Bat hits <> panel being ripped out.

With all due respect this is not fact it is your own opinion. The only firm evidence was that one of the bullet holes was split when the bat was used. None of the witnesses as far as I remember said they heard a shot on its own and then screams and more shots but when the asked her to repeat timing on the shots she said it was only seconds,.....for him to shoot once and then hit the door with the bat and make that hole would have surely been impossible in 'seconds'??

Are you sure he said he saw Reeva through that small hole as I interpreted him to mean he saw it was her after removing the first panel which was at least a few inches wide? I am not 100% myself so will try and find the clip.:scared:

 

[BritsKate]

And...to throw into the mix of my last several posts...no one...NO ONE has testified to hearing any bangs at 3:12 though this is the time Oscar estimates he fired his gun.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think by "crouch" OP was describing this firing position - legs bent, upper body forward, gun held between shoulder and waist:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...frp_12_80_p119.png/220px-Fmfrp_12_80_p119.png

Nel immediately pounced on the word "crouched" - so that version probably disappeared fast. That's the way I see OP though - on his legs, ready to fire, and the bathroom light burning brightly.

That is a very useful diagram and clearly demonstrates why I have difficulty in believing that the shooting definitely occurred whilst OP was on stumps particularly bearing in mind the height of him with and without his legs.
At the early part of the trial I was thinking it was a big difference but that is not the case .
This is certainly still a grey area for me whatever the state or defence say.
At the end of the day we only have OP's word he didn't have his legs on which could be the truth or could be a lie to make him appear more vulnerable.

 

[Irisha]

Yes I would trust what I hear with my own ears if it's not something that has to be measured precisely. It's really no different than asking the Stipps and Merwe about the subsequent voices they heard when the sound tests were conducted.

Edit: to clarify, I would object to such a sound test if it went against my client. But if I were the judge it would be meaningful as a demonstration of how loud a cricket bat hitting a door can be and how it compares to the sound of a gunshot

I'm not an expert, nor a chemist, but I totally disagree. Although I totally believe OP is guilty BARD, he is paying for a top notch defense. Not the guy who was on the stand today, who used a music producer, internet, testified about things he is NOT qualified in as an expert , and so on soforth. You must be familiar with duck and diving?

 

[Hatfield]

BIB. Funny and sad, but that is the level of desperation within the DT right now, being played out live before your very eyes. I'm guessing OP has spent $2M (US) to buy what we are watching unfold.

Agree and I want that job. Just claim to know things and get paid for it.

Although my honest concious would never let me have that job because I would never be able to lie about things in court.

There was a well known doctor that I lost all respect for when he started to testify for people and common sense told us he was making his testimony to fit whatever he was paid for. It is dishonest

 

[steveml]

Agree with your last paragraph. The irony

Nel experts have already been attacked (whether legitimate attacks or not) but irony is there were at least experts.

I got mine in early against the DT witness...

...therefore I have WS immunity... :escape:

 

[TipDog]

Why not? If someone is willing to shoot and kill someone doesn't it make sense that they are also able and willing to mock them as well? Especially knowing that the cries for help are pointless.

MOO

This is a real mystery to me. Either:

1. OP is truly a sociopath/psychopath (not proven in any way) and somehow snapped - which would make sense if he were completely enraged. Thus, help, help, help was him mocking her (after all, we can't just shrug off her WA message to him about him making fun of her accent, nor can we just believe OP's testimony that he only did that one time over a conversation of him buying himself a house.)

2. No way in the world is #1 a possibility, so the help, help, help was a post release of rage and realization of what he'd done. It might have been a moment of madness for him, actually.

But I don't buy it that the help, help, help was delivered in the way OP claims it was in his version. If his intent was to receive immediate help, he would have done the very thing he claims he whispered-said-in-a-soft-tone-screamed-shouted at Reeva and called the police.

But he didn't call for help in the one way he would have most logically received it. Therefore, him yelling off the balcony help, help, help was not delivered in the logical and normal way in which anyone trying to get help after shooting someone they love would have delivered it.

 

[TorisMom003]

Agree and I want that job. Just claim to know things and get paid for it.

Although my honest concious would never let me have that job because I would never be able to lie about things in court.

There was a well known doctor that I lost all respect for when he started to testify for people and common sense told us he was making his testimony to fit whatever he was paid for. It is dishonest

That wouldn't be the same doctor that was supposed to be a witness in the Casey Anthony trial that was willing to be paid a "crate of oranges" was it?

 

[TipDog]

And if we assume Oscar's 3:12 shooting time is accurate to get past the time problem, disregard the first bangs though the defence has stated those were the gunshots or accept the witnesses who heard the bangs were wrong on the time, we still have to conclude Oscar was screaming like a woman for 12 minutes before firing his gun. If he was screaming at an intruder he had a full 12 minutes to not think and not intend to shoot.

It's quite honestly headache producing trying to get the defence's version to work.

Is it ever.

 

[shane13]

Sorry in advance mods, and I hope this is understood how I mean it, but this is really aggravating me to the point that I believe it needs to be noted.

Beginning @ 52:47 in the video I am putting below, the camera angle moves so that the gallery can be seen. Before and after this we have seen close up Reeva's family and friends sitting up, paying attention, without any dramatics on their parts even though they are hearing testimony that has to be unbelievably hard on them. Then we have OP's sister bent over completely where only a small part of her back is showing (white top next to the woman in the white top). Earlier OP's sister was doing the same position that OP has been. Hands covering face, head down, thumbs in and/or near ears. The theatrics that OP's sister is displaying is uncalled for and frankly should not be allowed in court. IMO if she can not control herself and behave in the manner in which one expects in a court of law then she should be asked to leave by the judge.

MOO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7H9rQ72yE#aid=P9pynR-2SDw

Exactly when please is Aimee?

 

[Viper]

And if we assume Oscar's 3:12 shooting time is accurate to get past the time problem, disregard the first bangs though the defence has stated those were the gunshots or accept the witnesses who heard the bangs were wrong on the time, we still have to conclude Oscar was screaming like a woman for 12 minutes before firing his gun. If he was screaming at an intruder he had a full 12 minutes to not think and not intend to shoot.

It's quite honestly headache producing trying to get the defence's version to work.

BIB. Stop using logic and reason! Geez... :floorlaugh:

 

[TorisMom003]

Exactly when please is Aimee?

Look into the gallery starting at where I suggested. See the woman in the front row of OP's family on the left hand side of those people? See that white shirt that is bent over at the waist so that the head is behind the bench in front of it? That bent over person is OP's sister.

 

[shane13]

Look into the gallery starting at where I suggested. See the woman in the front row of OP's family on the left hand side of those people? See that white shirt that is bent over at the waist so that the head is behind the bench in front of it? That bent over person is OP's sister.

I did not see Aimee when you cited.
Please give me exact PIT
Ta

ETA: I can make out someone bending over barely
Thanks
ETA2: At 1:02:40 we can verify that that is Aimee from closeup

 

[DebinGA]

Really love how Mr. Dixon throws in that he is not a ballistic expert while he is testifying to ballistics.

So really, what was the point of bringing Mr. Dixon into court, onto the stand, to testify?

Before he's through, Dixon will tell us exactly when the cheese and veggies were eaten, explain OP's "hurdle", and tell us whether ST really cheated on OP with VdB.

 

[TorisMom003]

I did not see Aimee when you cited.
Please give me exact PIT
Ta

ETA: I can make out someone bending over barely
Thanks

Let's see if this works. I hopefully have the video to start at when you can see her bent over. She is in the middle of the picture. There is a woman sitting on her right (as we are looking at them) that has on a white shirt, wearing glasses with dark brown/black hair. To the left of the woman wearing glasses in the white shirt, you can see a white "bump". That "bump" is Aimee bent over so that her head is not showing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ry7H9rQ72yE#t=3168

ETA: At 52:53 you can see the woman in the white shirt with the glasses on reach over and pat Aimee on the back.

ETA2: At 53:31 you can see Aimee begin to sit up.

 

[weeeva]

Agreed
However evidence of the door being kicked means very little because at this point because there is no proof as to when exactly the kicking occurred .
It has not been proven either way whether he was or wasn't wearing his legs the whole time.
JMOO

No it has not been proven, but I was under the impression that both sides agreed that he was on his stumps at time of shooting. I am still of the opinion that OP would not be prancing around on his stumps for a significant length of time especially during a prolonged argument with a woman. He and Reeva were not together long enough for him to feel completely comfortable and relaxed about his disability. I feel his lack of height in his natural state would be a big problem for him, especially where women are concerned. In fact I would go as far as to say this could be a cause of his jealousy and insecurities, regarding his girlfriends and other men.