Trial Discussion Thread #29

[molly333]

BBM - You mean you wouldn't leave your balcony doors open while you slept?

Balcony's on the second floor, ac was broken, and the night was so hot they couldn't sleep. I doubt he felt comfortable about leaving them open. Sounds like he had no choice.

 

[Mr Ron]

When they charged Oscar with pre-meditated murder, there were articles in the SA newspapers saying police believed he had hit Reeva with the bat, had shot her while on his prosthetics, etc.

I think they jumped the gun with the pre-meditated murder charge before all the facts were in. Maybe they were just covering their bases and that's how they do things there--I don't know.

But they have not proven pre-meditated murder and their case is over.

I still think the prosecution case for premeditated murder is unclear (not a good thing), but expect it to be made clear in the closing arguments. If it isn't a very good argument at that stage then it will be shown not to be.

On the basis of how the law works in SA (or at least my understanding of it), he could still be found guilty of Murder even if he did believe there was an intruder behind that door.

Not being in posession of all the facts myself, and not having yet attempted to formulate a cogent argument on the basis of them I'm unwilling to have a real opinion on the matter.

 

[Cherwell]

Personally I'll be waiting till after the closing arguments to make a personal decision as to what I think OP is guilty of with regards to what happened on the evening of the 14th February.

I've only just started reading the transcripts of the prosecution case prior to Pistorius taking the stand and there's still a hell of a lot of the defence case to be put. I don't think anybody should reach a judgement until all the facts are weighed and the arguments finalised.

That said I'd be surprised if he wasn't found guilty of the charges relating to the restaurant. Then again the defence is far from finished.

From what I've seen I don't think the prosecution has made a strong enough case (so far) for him to be found guilty (beyond reasonable doubt) of having premeditated the murder of Reeva Steenkamp specifically. However the way the case has been tried before court and witnessing the prosecutor's style in cross examination means that an extrapolation of the prosecutions final arguments is difficult. Nel seems to take a piecemeal approach to questioning, whereby things are put on record in a fairly haphazard fashion - out of order of their happening.

If we relate this, for example, to his questioning of Pistorius I suspect that he may have found enough inconsistencies, logical contradictions and admissions to at least put Pistorius in grave danger of being found guilty of culpable homicide and possibly even murder even if it is granted that the greater part of Pistorius' testimony is true. Again it depends on how well the prosecution weaves these miriad inconsistencies into a cogent closing argument and how well the defence can explain them in a different fashion.

We just have to wait and see.

We were joined last night by a poster from South Africa who is very familiar with Gerrie Nel's style, and he mentioned the piecemeal nature of his questioning as being typical of Nel. He also said that Nel is brilliant at drawing all the disparate threads together in his closing arguments and that this is where he excels. I am really looking forward to that.

 

[Val1]

Many on here enjoy analyzing the details and comparing possiblilities etc. but the bottom line seems to be that any defendant that gets up and consistently calls what happening during the course of a murder a "version" tells it all. His concocted story does not really deserve any analysis as it is just a made up story after he did the unthinkable. Frankly it is not even a good story. All you have to do is look at the faces of the defense team and OP's family to know they realize he is done.

After the "Dixon Debaucle" now the pathologist who has been with the defense almost since day one refuses to testify. Who else will follow? They know this case is a guarantee loser and they don't want to be associated with it. I don't think Dixon had much to lose. This break will afford Roux some time to figure how to cut his loss and get out of this.

Frankly I don't understand the break...seems like Gerrie Nel is going on "holiday" and one of his team has another matter. Surely they knew this trial was not going to be short and I think there is more to the break but not sure what it is. Then upon return they actually want to put in some serious hours. Also the thought of OP walking free is really scary...believe me he still has his "black tallon bullets".

As Roux retools the case stay tuned for more surprises. They may be down to very few witnesses as he cannot take a chance on another Dixon...

Apparently there are elections, another trial that has precedence(apartheid related iirc), holidays, and some personal reason that had been previously worked out with all parties. When's all said and done, they will only be postponing it for 7 working days.

 

[soozieqtips]

When they charged Oscar with pre-meditated murder, there were articles in the SA newspapers saying police believed he had hit Reeva with the bat, had shot her while on his prosthetics, etc.

I think they jumped the gun with the pre-meditated murder charge before all the facts were in. Maybe they were just covering their bases and that's how they do things there--I don't know.

But they have not proven pre-meditated murder and their case is over.

BBM - Not quite. Nel already made mincemeat of expert (and I use the term loosely) Roger Dixon, so I imagine the Judge will put most of that 'evidence' in her recycle bin. And bear in mind the 'best' defence witness normally gives evidence first. Having watched Nel chew him up, swish him around a bit and then spit him out, I doubt whether the other witnesses will pose any problems for him. Dixon was out collecting more 'evidence' (also a term used loosely) when the trial was already under way and the DT knew what they needed to collect to try and tailor OP's 'version'. Really doesn't say much about their faith in OP's fairytale. If they're so sure of their case, how come they're busy trying to collect 'evidence' after hearing witness testimony? Credibility of witness - shot.

 

[turaj]

Several people who live in SA have posted on here very eloquently. The most recent made the points that firstly SA is not as bad as some people make out and secondly that the type of estate where OP lived is extremely secure. That is why people pay a fortune to live there. Hence OP's claims of feeling insecure are at least rather questionable. Quite apart from the fact that he sleeps with the doors open, leaves broken windows unfixed and doesn't seem to know when or if he has set the alarm - and chooses not to use the panic button.

I have to seriously question this security issue. As pointed out above...sleeps with doors open. I live in middle America in a safe suburb...I won't sleep with windows or sliding door open...never. Then he testified he did not check the alarm sensors after painting etc. and leaves windows broken. He was not that nervous in my opinion. And if in the middle of the summer my ac was broken I would have it fixed immediately. He did not seem to care but complained about the heat.

As I watch his family (those that care enough to be there) they seem to be looking at him and thinking that somewhere along the line they should have made sure he got some help as he has had major issues since childhood. I feel like they sort of are taking some of the blame...at least the sister.

 

[Lyra500]

When they charged Oscar with pre-meditated murder, there were articles in the SA newspapers saying police believed he had hit Reeva with the bat, had shot her while on his prosthetics, etc.

I think they jumped the gun with the pre-meditated murder charge before all the facts were in. Maybe they were just covering their bases and that's how they do things there--I don't know.

But they have not proven pre-meditated murder and their case is over.

OP deliberately went and fetched a gun, approached a small confined enclosure where he admits he knew another human being was and fired his gun FOUR times.

That seems like pre-meditation - a deliberate life threatening action following a decision to go towards rather than away from the perceived threat (and that is going by his version which I do not believe).

So - does it say that it has to be proved he knew it was Reeva to show pre-meditation? I did not think it did.

 

[Val1]

Personally I'll be waiting till after the closing arguments to make a personal decision as to what I think OP is guilty of with regards to what happened on the evening of the 14th February.

I've only just started reading the transcripts of the prosecution case prior to Pistorius taking the stand and there's still a hell of a lot of the defence case to be put. I don't think anybody should reach a judgement until all the facts are weighed and the arguments finalised.

That said I'd be surprised if he wasn't found guilty of the charges relating to the restaurant. Then again the defence is far from finished.

From what I've seen I don't think the prosecution has made a strong enough case (so far) for him to be found guilty (beyond reasonable doubt) of having premeditated the murder of Reeva Steenkamp specifically. However the way the case has been tried before court and witnessing the prosecutor's style in cross examination means that an extrapolation of the prosecutions final arguments is difficult. Nel seems to take a piecemeal approach to questioning, whereby things are put on record in a fairly haphazard fashion - out of order of their happening.

If we relate this, for example, to his questioning of Pistorius I suspect that he may have found enough inconsistencies, logical contradictions and admissions to at least put Pistorius in grave danger of being found guilty of culpable homicide and possibly even murder even if it is granted that the greater part of Pistorius' testimony is true. Again it depends on how well the prosecution weaves these miriad inconsistencies into a cogent closing argument and how well the defence can explain them in a different fashion.

We just have to wait and see.

bbm - Do you have a link please? The rest of us have had to watch the actual testimonies and transcripts would be very helpful!

 

[soozieqtips]

Balcony's on the second floor, ac was broken, and the night was so hot they couldn't sleep. I doubt he felt comfortable about leaving them open. Sounds like he had no choice.

BBM - I didn't ask if he had a choice. You said if there was one crime in your area, you'd go back to being hyper vigilant. I asked if that (being hyper vigilant) would mean you slept with your doors open. Would it? I've slept in hotels with no air-con and just fans. When it's too warm, the fans don't do much, but there are other ways of keeping cool, like spraying a sheet with cool water and draping the sheet over you. Very effective and another 'choice' he could have made.

 

[turaj]

Balcony's on the second floor, ac was broken, and the night was so hot they couldn't sleep. I doubt he felt comfortable about leaving them open. Sounds like he had no choice.

Those multi million dollar homes have a/c. His was broken. OP could have had that fixed that day if he wanted...I don't think they are as dependant on a/c as many other countries and obviously his being broken was not a high priority for him...just open the windows and doors...which indicates he was not SO AFRAID as he makes out.

 

[molly333]

BBM - Not quite. Nel already made mincemeat of expert (and I use the term loosely) Roger Dixon, so I imagine the Judge will put most of that 'evidence' in her recycle bin. And bear in mind the 'best' defence witness normally gives evidence first. Having watched Nel chew him up, swish him around a bit and then spit him out, I doubt whether the other witnesses will pose any problems for him. Dixon was out collecting more 'evidence' (also a term used loosely) when the trial was already under way and the DT knew what they needed to collect to try and tailor OP's 'version'. Really doesn't say much about their faith in OP's fairytale. If they're so sure of their case, how come they're busy trying to collect 'evidence' after hearing witness testimony? Credibility of witness - shot.

The Judge will decide for herself the cogency of his points.

He demonstrated something we already knew, the shots and the bat strikes sound alike, but it is good the Judge gets to hear it for herself.

He drew attention to the fact that Oscar was not standing in front of the door talking to Reeva as the prosecutor alleged. He shot her from an angle, showing he was afraid to stand directly in front of the door because he thought the person inside could shoot back.

 

[sleuth-d-]

When they charged Oscar with pre-meditated murder, there were articles in the SA newspapers saying police believed he had hit Reeva with the bat, had shot her while on his prosthetics, etc.

I think they jumped the gun with the pre-meditated murder charge before all the facts were in. Maybe they were just covering their bases and that's how they do things there--I don't know.

But they have not proven pre-meditated murder and their case is over.

their case isn't over.
if you are watching, nel is using cross to continue his case... he did it with op and dixon

 

[Lochlynsmom]

OP deliberately went and fetched a gun, approached a small confined enclosure where he admits he knew another human being was and fired his gun FOUR times.

That seems like pre-meditation - a deliberate life threatening action following a decision to go towards rather than away from the perceived threat (and that is going by his version which I do not believe).

So - does it say that it has to be proved he knew it was Reeva to show pre-meditation? I did not think it did.

^^^ This!
Yes, and that is exactly what the charging documents state. I am not sure OP supporters understand the premeditation charge fully?

 

[Lyra500]

Those multi million dollar homes have a/c. His was broken. OP could have had that fixed that day if he wanted...I don't think they are as dependant on a/c as many other countries and obviously his being broken was not a high priority for him...just open the windows and doors...which indicates he was not SO AFRAID as he makes out.

Exactly.

 

[BritsKate]

Most murders, even in South Africa, are committed by someone the victim knows. Statistically speaking, anyone of us would probably be just as likely to be murdered in South Africa as we would anywhere else in the world.

Despite a higher crime rate, many South Africans believe strongly in their community and are fighting very hard to improve it. They haven't all armed themselves and they aren't so 'paranoid' as to ignore a broken window, leave their balcony doors strewn wide, never push a panic button or call security over a rabid washing machine, leave unsecured ladders unaccounted for, and windows unlocked.

And just a note about statistics (I'm not refuting them, its just food for thought) every jurisdiction has a different manner for recording crime that often depends on definition. As an example, if a woman was raped by two men in the UK, it would be recorded as one rape but in SA it would be recorded as two.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Bazinga]

When they charged Oscar with pre-meditated murder, there were articles in the SA newspapers saying police believed he had hit Reeva with the bat, had shot her while on his prosthetics, etc.

I think they jumped the gun with the pre-meditated murder charge before all the facts were in. Maybe they were just covering their bases and that's how they do things there--I don't know.

But they have not proven pre-meditated murder and their case is over.

Regarding the charges
I heard a SA legal expert talking on ABC Australian radio about Oscar's charges. He said the prosecution cannot upgrade the charge once the trial has commenced so they start with a higher charge. If he is acquitted of the murder charge the judge must then consider if a lesser crime such as Culpable homicide has been committed and find him guilty of that if she feels that has been proven.
I wonder if anyone with SA legal knowledge can confirm this is the process.

 

[Cherwell]

Bumping this in hopes of an answer from molly333 who seems to be online now.

I have a question for those who are believing and/or defending OP.

Why, when he thought he heard the window being opened, didn't he ask Reeva if she'd heard it?

He has said that she was awake and they had just spoken to one another.

An ex-girlfriend testified that in similar circumstances, he woke her to ask her if she had heard anything.

Everyone on this forum seems to agree that if they hear a noise at night, the first thing they do is check with their partner if they heard it.

All the earwitnesses bear this out. All three couples spoke to one another about the noises they heard that night.

 

[turaj]

Apparently there are elections, another trial that has precedence(apartheid related iirc), holidays, and some personal reason that had been previously worked out with all parties. When's all said and done, they will only be postponing it for 7 working days.

Roux will need all of those days to get his witnesses ready. One already dropped out (Pathologist) and more may follow.

 

[Val1]

BBM - I didn't ask if he had a choice. You said if there was one crime in your area, you'd go back to being hyper vigilant. I asked if that (being hyper vigilant) would mean you slept with your doors open. Would it? I've slept in hotels with no air-con and just fans. When it's too warm, the fans don't do much, but there are other ways of keeping cool, like spraying a sheet with cool water and draping the sheet over you. Very effective and another 'choice' he could have made.

During our heat waves when it's too hot to sleep upstairs, we "camp out" downstairs in the family and living rooms where it's much cooler, and we have carpet... OP's downstairs looked like it was all tile downstairs so would be even cooler. Putting bowls of water(ice works even better) in front of fans help cool the air too so yes, there were other choices rather than leaving entry points for intruders if you're so paranoid that you need to shoot visitors until dead when they need to use the toilet during the night...

 

[Mr Ron]

bbm - Do you have a link please? The rest of us have had to watch the actual testimonies and transcripts would be very helpful!

Sorry I can't be more help, it's just the sky news one (and it's pretty unreliable). I tend to listen to the testimony and read it at the same time.