Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Estelle]

Truth be told, I actually have no idea why he would or could forget it...I'm honestly stumped and have no answer I would imagine it was highly important to find out what activity was going on the phone prior to the shooting. And guess we will find out as time goes on...hopefully soon.

As lovers on valentine watching porn, well haha I guess some people get their rocks off in different ways maybe, who knows. I'm still actually not sure if it was his iPad or iPhone that needed unlocking?? Is there any confirmation?

iPhone not easy to share on a mobile phone when watching X-rated or violent porn, methinks. It would really turn me off as I hate volence which is usually against women. I would be very afraid if I found out my bf was watching violent porn which is of course X-rated porn.

 

[shane13]

Hi,

I've been following this case from the start, and recently stumbled upon these comments under the articles, which I think are very interesting and could perhaps provide with a motive?

I was wondering what you guys make of them? These comments certainly paint a very different picture of Reeva and Oscar's relationship!

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/reeva-and-oscars-parents-still-tussling-over-settlement.htm

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/hougaard-denies-sms-to-reeva-1.1583956#.UxsLGn-9KSP

Welcome.

Good articles.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Where does the 3.20am phone call for help to netcare from OP fit it??

Oscar rang the guardhouse at that time not Netcare. Also OP did not speak to the guard during that call. The guard only heard him crying.

 

[Trooper]

Security, Everything's fine......

at this point.. Baba is ringing Oscars phone , because various people, Dr Stipp for one, has rung in and got thru to security, one thru call, one waiting while security phone is engaged, ( presumably because other people are making calls to security)

by the time Oscar is stating 'Security, every things fine'... he has heard sounds in his bathroom window, while he was bringing in the fans, and closing the blinds and windows.. he has found his gun, gone to the bathroom, fired 4 times low thru a closed and ( he thinks ) locked door.. gone back to his bedroom, put on his prosthetic legs, turned the light on, picked up a cricket bat, gone into the bathroom, and up to the toilet door, which has 4 bullet holes thru it. whacks at the toilet door, breaks into the toilet room , sees who he has shot..

*security.. everythings fine *

 

[Coldpizza]

:welcome: Patagonia, thanks for joining the discussion!

 

[Patagonia]

Welcome.

Good articles.

Hi, thanks Did you get the chance to read the comments under the articles? About Reeva & Oscar's relationship? They appear to be from the people who knew them quite well. And there are many similar views on Twitter from people from SA..

If anything, it seems to prove Oscar lied in his Affidavit about the state of their relationship and them being "deeply in love"...

 

[Trooper]

I think Oscar rang Standar.. head of security. Standar tells him, it'll be fine.. Oscar. when faced with incoming call from the patrol guard, Baba, wants him out of the picture.. Oscar and Standar will take care of it all. The less people involved the better. Oscar has no idea that a medical practictioner has heard both him and Reeva screaming, then shots, then shots AND man and woman screaming simultaneously, and has called in the patrol guards, and not only that, he goes over to Oscars house.. Oscar doesn't know that other people have been calling security because of sounds heard, and shots fired.

By the time Dr Stipp gets there, the patrol guard Baba is at the doorway.. he's seen Oscar carry Reeva 's body down the stairs and lay her on the hallway tiles.. when Stipp gets there, Oscar has his hand on Reeva's left groin and his other hand and fingers down Reeva's throat and is muttering and moaning..

Reeva is well and truly dead at this point. Even though Dr Stipp goes thru the motions of resuscitation he knows she has been dead for at least 2 and maybe 5 minutes by then due to the condition of her eyes..

no ambulance, no police have been called.. at the scene are, in this order.. Oscar carring Reeva down stairs, Mr Standar.. Mr Standars daughter, ( mrs Standar also??) Baba the patrol guard, and Dr Stipp..

6 living people and one dead body.

from testimony, Oscar is distraught, Baba is in the deepest shock He's been told by Oscar that everything is fine. Dr Stipp is frantically trying to find any sign of life he can. Anything.

Don't know how Standar, the daughter and Standars wife are coping.... They will, no doubt testify later.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes. What evidence do we have that OP did, in fact, make a Netcare call? Is it only from OP and Roux?

There is no evidence we have heard (as yet) that he called Netcare. Dr Stipp (in his testimony) asked Stander and Oscar whether an ambulance and the police had been called. He stated that both Stander and Oscar said no to his question. So far we know Oscar called Stander who arrived with his daughter. The only other call Oscar has made that has been recorded in evidence was a short call (16 seconds) at around 3.20 to the guardhouse. Baba stated that Oscar said nothing but he heard him crying. This call was after Baba had rung Oscar to ask if he needed help.

When Baba was not happy with Oscar saying "everything was fine", he went to Oscar's house, in the company of another guard, where he met Stander and his Daughter at the door. Stander ordered Baba to call the police and ambulance at that time, which he duly did.

HTH

 

[Cherwell]

I see where there is somewhat a lot of screaming going on,consistent with witnesses. OP screams at intruder and Reeva, shoots door, screams some more for help, bats down door at 3.17, calls netcare at 3.20 and THEN carries her downstairs when others start to arrive, well past the 3.20 mark. The only thing really left at THIS point of the evidence is the woman/man screams...although a witness has already testified she mistook OP screaming for a woman. And I'm sure it was this forum where someone posted a link to a man screaming like a girl when he got a fright...not quite the same as the OP scenario but it is possible.

This may just be a matter of semantics, but I wouldn't describe all those types of sounds as "screaming".

Screaming, to me, is a loud, usually wordless, expression of intense fear or panic. It's an involuntary thing. People scream if in mortal danger, but some people scream if they see a mouse

If OP called out to the alleged intruder, that would be shouting or yelling, and similar if calling for help. It's not quite the same thing to my ears.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Oh horse feathers, no wonder I couldn't find a live feed. I missed the security guard testimony due to a lack of sleep but did read the updates and know where the online videos are located.

Anyone notice when Nel was questioning Sam, OP started writing notes to one of his lawyers and passing them forward? I wonder if Roux got the idea about one of Sams emails from OP's note passing?

Nel did confuse me a bit with his questioning of Sam about which side of the bed Oscar slept on, I know she said the right side. Just the if you're standing at the foot of the bed facing the wall questions. I questioned which wall she was facing.

Did he sleep on the side closest the sliding door to the porch?

Not that it's all that important, it just made me curious. IMO

In her testimony, Samantha Taylor said he always slept on the right (facing the wall at the back of the bed), nearest the windows.

She was also asked if Oscar "ventilated" his legs with fans. She says she has no recollection of ever seeing him doing that. I guess we are going to hear that he would bring in the fans to ventilate his legs! I think they were talking about his prostheses. During Samantha's testimony she was also asked if Oscar ever woke her in the night if he thought he heard a noise. She said on two or three occasions he did wake her to ask her if she heard anything. She was also asked whether Oscar had ever told her in the morning that he heard noises during the night and went to investigate but did not wake her. She clearly stated he had never mentioned to her that he had.

HTH

 

[Patagonia]

Re: "Everything is fine" + Oscar crying

I think Roux will argue it could have either been missheard "I am fine" (unlikely, imo), or due to "extreme shock" on Oscar's part... Anyway, I don't think even this will be crucial...

Imo, Nel should show O&R's relationship wasn't that perfect and there lies his motive...

But, personaly, I don't think it was premeditated... More like in extreme rage. But still a murder, and not mistaken for an intruder..

Also, to me, the most damaging thing from Samantha's testimony was about Oscar being prone to anger (and shouting at her, her relatives & friends on multiple occasions)

P.s. Nice to meet you all

 

[Interested Bystander]

That she KNOWS of, how many times did OP get up in the night and check all was ok without waking her up. It is possible that he didn't find the need to wake her every single time he got up to check security and then tell her about it the next morning.

Samantha was asked when she was on the stand whether Oscar had ever told her in the morning that he had, on occasion, heard noises in the night but not woken her. She answered that he had never told her that he had heard anything during the night and not woken her up.

It seems it was the norm for him to wake her and ask if she heard anything. That doesn't, of course, preclude that he may not have told her next morning that he got up because he had heard something but it makes it less likely.

 

[Interested Bystander]

This may just be a matter of semantics, but I wouldn't describe all those types of sounds as "screaming".

Screaming, to me, is a loud, usually wordless, expression of intense fear or panic. It's an involuntary thing. People scream if in mortal danger, but some people scream if they see a mouse

If OP called out to the alleged intruder, that would be shouting or yelling, and similar if calling for help. It's not quite the same thing to my ears.

I find it difficult to understand whether shouting is also referred to as screaming in this case. At times where I would have said shouting, some witnesses seem to refer to it as screaming. This has happened on a number of occasions. I wonder whether in SA if someone shouts and rants at you it is referred to, colloquially, as screaming at you??

 

[Interested Bystander]

Actually I respectfully disagree completely. Medically, given the nature of the wounds, she was likely irretrievable--or so--from death or a permanent vegetative state.

The real significance of those words IMO are to his credibility, his involvement and possible plans if not discoverd and other things.

If he had "innocently" believed he had an intruder in his house, and shot to "protect himself and Reeva" he would have told Mr. Baba what had happened.

Very good point, Shane.

 

[soozieqtips]

Well, I guess if he was moving towards the bathroom at a fast pace, how would he have known that she hadn't woken up and was not calling police like he had shouted at her to do?? It's not to say she would have started screaming too, he might have just thought she would wake and make the call without shouting out herself???

Also, we cannot know for a fact when the door was actually locked, did she lock it when she went into the bathroom...or did she lock it when she heard OP screaming there is an intruder??? I doubt he would have heard her turning the key while he is screaming down the passage to the bathroom. I can imagine while she was alive in that loo moments before the shooting, she was incredibly afraid and confused as to what was happening on the other side of the door.... ( and I'm saying this in relation to what OP said happened) . In my mind, it's quite rational and plausible.

BBM - except that in his affidavit, OP claimed he had 'limited' mobility on his stumps, which would contradict 'moving towards the door at a fast pace'. And if Reeva had locked the door after OP had screamed there was an intruder, she's still behind a locked door where the intruder can't get to her. So why no response from her?

 

[Interested Bystander]

I was a great admirer of his. I supported his being allowed to run in the Olympics and had tears in my eyes watching him run for the first time in 2012. I couldn't believe it when I first heard the news not a year later that he'd killed someone. It's quite a tragedy, accident or not. She seemed like a lovely and intelligent woman. Should never have happened.

Me too. It was such a great athlete and ambassador for his sport. At the beginning I had hoped this was all some tragic accident but as more and more evidence has become available I have found I cannot believe his story.
In particular that Reeva did not scream after the first bullet. All earwitnesses report there were screams. I think he killed her in one of his (well documented) rages. It does seem that he can get 'out of control' very quickly. Unless he confesses we will never know what happened.

Technically the charge of premeditated murder is correct IMO. He could at any time have stopped shooting. He chose to continue, knowing he would likely kill someone, known or unknown. However, somehow, I think he will probably get Culpable Homicide with a short sentence which seems so unfair to Reeva.

I hope that he will change his plea when the evidence is put before him but now, I think, unlikely as I think he has come to believe his story. He is supposed to be going to testify. I think Nel will break his alibi and he will be seen to be a liar, trying to protect his own skin. I feel sure his family must also know/have guessed the truth and I struggle with the fact that he is supposed to be very religious and yet can conduct this charade for so long and with total disrespect for the lover he killed.

 

[shane13]

Hi, thanks Did you get the chance to read the comments under the articles? About Reeva & Oscar's relationship? They appear to be from the people who knew them quite well. And there are many similar views on Twitter from people from SA..

If anything, it seems to prove Oscar lied in his Affidavit about the state of their relationship and them being "deeply in love"...

No, I did not read comments.
But we know Reeva's friends and family say they were not so close or in love.

Someone posted a link to an MSM piece that says Reeva's friend Sam Greyvanstein who had earleir said they were in love and might have gotten married [or such] has now changed her mind about this.

 

[Trooper]

Re: "Everything is fine" + Oscar crying

I think Roux will argue it could have either been missheard "I am fine" (unlikely, imo), or due to "extreme shock" on Oscar's part... Anyway, I don't think even this will be crucial...

P.s. Nice to meet you all

Abbreviated by me, for brevity


I think the testimony of 'Security, everythings fine', is utterly crucial and not only for that mysterious fact that Oscar left it out of both his affidavits. That shows consciousness of guilt to me, not a dicey memory. What it shows is part of a pattern.

The witness order is not a random thing.. They are called to the stand, by the State, because this is the state case against Oscar, for a reason.. they don't go to the stand in the order they may have coincidentally turned up that morning..

The State is laying out a pattern here. The Boxer who testified that Oscar fired the gun in the restaurant, immediately lied about it, and asked Darrin to take the blame..

the young girl who testified that Oscar fires off his gun in rage.. out of spite against authority....

and the patrolling security guard, who is told 'every things fine'.. when it plainly and monumentally isn't.. conclusion?? Oscar doesn't WANT a security guard there... why?? he is in deep terror, he's shot Reeva, if his story is to be believed the intruder must be somewhere close by ... not in his toilet, he knows this now, but somewhere in his house..

he knows there never was an intruder, there was no 'noise in the bathroom'.... its an old story.. and oddly, when he has had these 'noises in the bathroom'..previously , on other nights, he does nothing about erecting security bars across that pesky window.

 

[Trooper]

and if Oscar wasn't in 'deep terror ' about an intruder.. he is going to that bathroom loaded up with lethal weaponry for one reason, and one reason only, and it isn't terror provoked by an intruder.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Pistorius in turmoil:

How Blade Runner's body language reveals the way that trial is taking its toll

Body language expert Dr Denise Bjorkman analyses his every move in court

Believes his teary breakdowns are 'staged to hide feelings of sickening guilt'

'Resting hands on head is involuntary move to reject unwanted information'

'Placing hands on genitalia region an indicator of his leaked powerlessness'

Believes choice of 'funereal' black suit is attempt to demonstrate grieving

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reveals-trial-taking-toll.html#ixzz2vMNvOvbf
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Looks like lots of self pity going on there, then.