Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Zinn]

We have not heard any mention of that yet. My guess is that after the bat hitts some parts of the door was partially broken but still on the door and two shots was thru that broken portion and two shots thru other remaining part. OP then
pushed the broken panel to the floor and grabbing the key which was inside on the floor , opened the door .JMO

I'm just wondering if it has been positively established that the cricket bat was used after the gunshots vs. before the gunshots. All gunshots appearing within the remaining door would neither support nor undermine OP's claims, but gunshots through portions of broken off door would support the claim that the bat was used after the gun was fired (though it wouldn't rule out the possibility of the bat being used both before and after, I suppose).

Given that Nel has stated he is not proposing there were two sets of gunshots, along with his assertion that the State believes Reeva was killed by the shots at 3:17, I wonder if he has theorized the loud noises just after 3:00am were sounds of the bat on the door. Or has Nel already stated he does not plan to dispute the claim that the bat was used only after Reeva was shot? If Nel has already stated he will not dispute that part of OP's account, I apologize in advance for wasting everyone's time with these questions.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[Trooper]

From a sound sleep, deep into the earl morning, so far, and there is one ear witmess to come, 4 people heard sounds of high and escalated arguument, gunshots and two voices screaming, a man and a womans. These sounds so galvanised them it propelled them from their beds and out onto their own balconies.. it provoked them into ringing security..

At Dr. Stipps home it woke both he and his wife, who hasnt testified, but he has in describing her reaction to these sounds, that he concluded he must go to where these shots and screaming were coming from , a brave man indeed.

All agreed, so far, that the epicenter of this elongated noise was in the vicinity if not the vicinity of Oscars house..

Therefore.. a reasonable person would ask.. if Oscar can hear a slight sound of a bathroom window being slid open... how come he didnt hear this mythical couple, as Roux and Oscar would have you beleive, making all this racket??
It seems only Oscar, and as Oscar vehemently asserts, Reeva DIDNT hear this screaming shooting stuff.. it can be said with rational certitude that Reeva was the recipient of those shots fired.. no one else was shot at, or shot thru that night in that location .

The witnesses so far heard are not random passers by.. they live there, right there, they hold jobs of reasonable responsibility, they have no dog in this fight, they know neither Oscar nor Reeva, no previous attachment to either. No axe to grind, no reason to tell a story that is extraordinarily similiar to each other. The dont know each other, either, previous to this event. Not socially attached in any way.

So .. a rational person would conclude that in fact, Oscar is lying.. if they heard it, and he says it wasnt him or Reeva.. why didnt he hear it? I believe the Dr when he says he heard a womans voice screaming. In the nature of his training, which would have included some internship in an Emergency ward, he would have a far better appreciation of the gender, pitch and frequency of screams than Oscar. Thats a given.

But Oscar denies any woman screaming. .All sounds, whatever their frequency, pitch, content, or sequence, was him ... His voice only. No other voice but Oscars made any contribution to the catalyst that woke up these 5 people that dark warm morning.

I find that requires such a huge suspension of my logic and reason that I discard it as having any integrity whatsoever.

 

[wishIknewmore]

On Gun Shots and “Bat Shots”

This mostly pertains to Dr. Stipp’s recollections of 2 alleged volleys of 3 shots each and some general info.

“Bat shots’ is a term someone here used. Not me, but I thank whoever coined it, as the term incorporates its own lack of credibility.

Stipp was awoken by the first set of alleged shots. He could be mistaken as to the # of shots he heard, or there could be echoes involved, or something else going on. To me, it is possible that his first volley of 3 shots heard were one shot and 2 echoes—accounting for 4 shots totally fired (allegedly).

As I noted several times, gunshots incorporate sonic booms, unlike “bat shots.’

In short, despite Roux trying to “put it to us” that the witnesses all heard “bat shots”, I have no trouble understanding that (depending on the state of the bathroom windows perhaps) none of the earwitnesses heard bat strikes, as I think its decibel level will be far lower than the gunshots.

Again the rapidity, reported by the witnesses, of the shots also makes it likely these were gunshots, not cricket bat shots.

Also the wood-on-wood sound should be distinct enough so that witnesses would have said they heard sounds attributed to such “bat shots”. None did apparently.

I have raised the possibility that I may not agree with both versions of events after they are laid out.

But both sides will present their forensics and ballistics and maybe audio evidence in the coming days and weeks, so I will reserve judgment.

But we should not accept ipso facto that earwitnesses heard any “batshots” just because Roux (or anyone else) says so.

I agree! I grew up in the country and have heard various gun shots through the years. Some were hunters with rifles or shotguns and other times it was my brother shooting targets with this pistol. There is a very distinct sound to each and I could tell you if it was a rifle, shotgun, or pistol even if I happened to be inside my house. I've heard multiple shots before and while there is an echo, especially with a rifle, you could hear each shot distinctively. There is not question about this in my opinion. The echo on still night might be heard but its sound like an echo. The next shot can be heard clearly.

Now I've never heard a cricket bat hit a wooden door inside my neighbors house but I have heard various sounds that we could all relate to in some regards. When a bat hits a ball, we know that sound. When hammer hits a nail, we know that sound. Many will know the sound of an axe hitting wood and how it even differs from the sound when just splitting wood. Can't think of a "wood on wood" example but NONE of those could ever compare to a gunshot. You also must be much closer to these sounds and won't always hear them from inside. While there many factors involved in acoustics of such sound, the only thing I've ever heard that sounds like a gun shot is when a car backfires. Even then, you jump thinking its a gunshot at first but then you know what it was. Just saying...

 

[jilly]

excerpted quote:
Plenty of loving couples watch together.

On the topic of the iphone/password. This has been discussed forever on these boards. My recollection is this: The iphone password is not the issue; the phone could be unlocked. It's the password to the Whatsapp encrypted messages that was of interest to the PT.*

Why is/was the PT so interested? The answer should be obvious: Find all hard evidence you can re the events of Feb 13/14 2013.

*So much has been written about "unlocking the iphone" in the MSM that I begin to doubt my own explanation. I did research on this issue last year, and the above is what I found. If someone else has definitive facts that counter the above, please do not hesitate to contribute.

Yes, that's what I read too. I also read somewhere (sorry didn't save it) that in order to do that the PT needed a warrant. I haven't seen anything since.

 

[Feynman]

I have just had a lightbulb moment. If OP had such a painful shoulder that it required strapping and he felt he had to change sides of the bed, how come he was able to smash down a door with a cricket bat?

Well I have a bad right shoulder, much worse than OP's. I had a titanium plate surgically implanted on a seriously broken upper humerus, and then removed - two operations in all. The shoulder is always a bit tight and painful now, and probably for life, but it's still quite serviceable. In a moment of emergency and adrenaline, there is no doubt I could use my shoulder with force. In other words, pain does not equal immobility. The shoulder might hurt a lot now - and much more tomorrow - but I could bash a door with a bat with a lot of energy if necessary today.

 

[curiousjo]

After the first round of "gun shots", the doctor heard a woman screaming AND a low pitched male voice.

The voices were overlapping, so there had to be 2 people. And both were alive after the first round of shots - thus fatal wound to head came later.... unless there was a 2nd woman present who has yet to be identified (doubtful)

 

[jilly]

Scenario: OP and RS may have settled into their usual postions, and then later OP says "Would you mind if we switched sides, my shoulder hurts in this position tonight?" That would explain why Reeva's stuff was on her usual side, etc.

I think that's a stretch. I'm sure he would have mentioned that in his affidavit. He tried to cover all his bases.

 

[wishIknewmore]

After the first round of "gun shots", the doctor heard a woman screaming AND a low pitched male voice.

The voices were overlapping, so there had to be 2 people. And both were alive after the first round of shots - thus fatal wound to head came later.... unless there was a 2nd woman present who has yet to be identified (doubtful)

YES!!!! This lays out it for me. It is the testimony that Roux and OP must discredit because there's only 1 explanation if this is true.

 

[Dmacky]

Oscar's new love. He likes them young

http://nypost.com/2014/03/03/oscar-pistorius-teen-gal-pal-revealed/

 

[Really?]

Oscar's new love. He likes them young

http://nypost.com/2014/03/03/oscar-pistorius-teen-gal-pal-revealed/

haha....I saw that earlier today......he does indeed like them quite a bit younger.

 

[shane13]

Excellent post, Shane.


Originally Posted by Estelle:

I do not remember reading anything about the one shot and two echoes but that is what I am now thinking too.

This is what I used to believe: ONE SHOT 17 MINUTES OF SILENCE THREE SHOTS


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2vPiSNvOI

Now I am wondering if it could be:

About 3.07am ONE SHOT + TWO ECHOES

10 MINUTES (Dr Stipp said about 10 minutes - could be 10-17 minutes going back to 3am)

This is where we surmised that OP phoned his brother and lawyer and started covering up

PREMEDITATION AS PISTORIUS SHOULD HAVE STOPPED SHOOTING BEFORE FIRING THE FINAL THREE SHOTS?

3.17 THREE SHOTS

Was Reeva wounded with the first shot and finally dead with the last shot?

I think that is all wrong too-your shootings timeline.

 

[shane13]

Lol, you could probably do a better job at cracking the case than our esteemed police force..go for it, you never know!!

Ps: warn me before hand thou so I can tune in!!

Well I finally figured out how to navigate that site.
Seems your John Robbie (#1 person at talk radio 702?) is on M-F at 6-9 AM.

Unfortunately it often comes down to what Jack Nicholson said, in A Few Good Men. "You [they] can't handle the truth."

Do you know if they archive their shows?

 

[Feynman]

Because if this was indeed a tumultuous relationship, it could provide a motive for the killing - as none has been mentioned so far in the trial.

ETA: I was not suggesting that those comments were truthful or should be believed. That is why I asked if there was any more information about her and about their relationship - maybe from a more reliable source.

To me it was clear that's what you meant.

 

[Cherwell]

And personally, if my right shoulder was injured I would find it more comfortable to sleep on the right side of the bed so if I laid on my left side I'd be facing away from the middle and get more air. That's just me though.

Am I the only one who always describes the right or left side of the bed from the position of lying in it? That is, if I say I sleep on the left side of the bed, I mean my left when I am in the bed.

 

[Trooper]

If there were no sounds that woke these unconnected people up at the same time, and with almost the same description of the quality and meaning of these sounds, human voices, a man and a woman , then what woke them up? What hauled them out of bed in a deep sleep cycle? what made them each ring security? How could they co ordinate their almost synchronised calls to security, if they were imagining it?? Individually imagining the same sounds at the same time?? it defies logic.

Therefore.. it is reasonable to believe they heard this argument..

For Oscars story to work, the 'intruder' has to pick the one house on the estate to choose to burgle where 2 people at least , are awake, on the top floor, where this burgler chooses to enter, screaming at each other. It stands to reason that a burgler hears the same sounds as the Witnesses.. unless the witnesses have, by some unknown and mystifying process, all been mistaken about the same event , at the same time.

It is Roux's position, under instructions from his client, that there was no argument. Reeva spoke not one word, not one sound that Oscar heard through all this. And the ONLY sound extraneous to his own that Oscar hears is the sliding of the bathroom window, from his position at the windows.

Yet he , and by extension, Reeva, are the CLOSEST to this argument between 2 people, man and woman. All the witnesses so far have pointed out that that was the direction. Stipp was even able to nail down the correct location of the sounds.

 

[soozieqtips]

After the first round of "gun shots", the doctor heard a woman screaming AND a low pitched male voice.

The voices were overlapping, so there had to be 2 people. And both were alive after the first round of shots - thus fatal wound to head came later.... unless there was a 2nd woman present who has yet to be identified (doubtful)

Yes. That's what Dr Stipp said he heard, two voices intermingled with each other, one male and one female. However, Roux would like the judge to believe he was mistaken about hearing two voices. He's already insisted that all the other witnesses didn't hear a woman screaming but instead heard OP screaming in falsetto. But Stipp claiming he heard both voices simultaneously presents him with a problem, so the answer to the problem is that Stipp must be mistaken (as every single witness has apparently been so far).

 

[shane13]

If there were no sounds that woke these unconnected people up at the same time, and with almost the same description of the quality and meaning of these sounds, human voices, a man and a woman , then what woke them up? What hauled them out of bed in a deep sleep cycle? what made them each ring security? How could they co ordinate their almost synchronised calls to security, if they were imagining it?? Individually imagining the same sounds at the same time?? it defies logic.

Therefore.. it is reasonable to believe they heard this argument..

For Oscars story to work, the 'intruder' has to pick the one house on the estate to choose to burgle where 2 people at least , are awake, on the top floor, where this burgler chooses to enter, screaming at each other. It stands to reason that a burgler hears the same sounds as the Witnesses.. unless the witnesses have, by some unknown and mystifying process, all been mistaken about the same event , at the same time.

It is Roux's position, under instructions from his client, that there was no argument. Reeva spoke not one word, not one sound that Oscar heard through all this. And the ONLY sound extraneous to his own that Oscar hears is the sliding of the bathroom window, from his position at the windows.

Yet he , and by extension, Reeva, are the CLOSEST to this argument between 2 people, man and woman. All the witnesses so far have pointed out that that was the direction. Stipp was even able to nail down the correct location of the sounds.

BBM

It couldn't be vice versa?

 

[Trooper]

BBM

It couldn't be vice versa?

Technically, no , Shane.. a barrister, a legal attorney, ones legal representative operates under the Clients instruction at all times..

of course , ones legal rep makes suggestions , naturally, but for the purposes of the court, and any trial for that matter, the legal rep is under the instructions of the Client.. the legal rep doesnt take on the trail under his OWN say so , or perspective..

Oscar has been adjudged sane enough to issue instructions to his legal chap, other wise Roux wouldnt be there..

Roux is indemnified from any repercussions that may ensue precisely BECAUSE he is under his clients instructions.

Any body, anyone who has a member of the bar representing them at trial has and is deemed to have issued them with instructions on what is their case to put before the court.

If Roux is running his own show, Oscar could fire him, and a judge would back him up and Roux would be censured.. probably disbared..never to be allowed to practise law again.

so we can with utter and serene certainty say, that Roux is acting under his client's ( Oscar) instruction.. from go to whoa.. this is what Oscar is paying for. As we all do. we pay for the legal rep to put our case under our instruction.

 

[Trooper]

Since this entire case will be down to motivation, the motivation for Oscar arming himself with his loaded gun from its place under the side of the bed, ( which is now Reeva's side, dont forget) .. has no foundation.

If he didnt wake up to bring the fans in, and close the curtains and windows, he was awake for an entirely different reason. If Reeva didnt silently go to the toilet, to relieve herself, she was awake already and went there for an entirely different reason.

If there was no window sliding sound.. and no mistake about just who is in the toilet, then loading himself up with a ready to fire gun and approaching the toilet door , screaming get out, get out, there is no reason to believe he was screaming that to a burgler.. he was screaming get out get out to Reeva.

And when he fires the gun.. once, twice three times, four.. he therefore knows who is in that toilet, behind a lockable door. (* we dont know how he knows it's locked ) .. then...

 

[kittychi]

Lol Kitty, it is possible that OP gave a detailed and thorough affidavit simply because he thought he had nothing to hide and told everything as it happened to the best of his knowledge.

With that, I leave you all, have an awesome day/evening where ever you are in the world and catch up tomorrow!!

:silly:


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