Trial Discussion Thread #30

[molly333]

Starting at 1:14:04

I remember pulling the trigger and the rounds going into the door...

That's where the firearm was pointed [at the door]...

I did not fire deliberately...

...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..

I didn't have time to think...I wouldn't have wanted to ..shoot at someone...

[Then Nel asks--[the gun went off accidentally]

That's the opposite of what I'm saying...

What I said was that the noise coming from the bathroom made me pull the trigger...

I can remember pulling the trigger...

The firearm was aimed at the door at that time...

I didn't have time to think if I wanted to or didn't want to [shoot the people coming out of the toilet]. I heard a noise coming from inside the toilet and I discharged the firearm.

[interaction]

I'm not sure about a second...if Reeva had come out or she had spoken to me or ...I wouldn't have fired.

[interaction]

I thought the robbers were in the toilet or on the ladder.

[I fired] because I heard a noise coming from the toilet that I interpretated as someone coming out to attack me.

I started shooting at that point.

[interaction]

I'm getting confused with this accidentally or not accidentally...I've said time and time again what I perceived and what I thought. I don't understand ...it was put to me yesterday it was by accident and now it's put to me it wasn't by accident. I don't understand...I'm saying that I didn't intend to shoot. My firearm was pointed at the door because that's where I believed that somebody was. When I heard a noise, I didn't have time to think and I fired my weapon. It was an accident.


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Thursday 10 April 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

 

[weeeva]

Agreed. This case is not remotely close to the other one! It's the opposite. OP hung around for God knows how long NOT getting help for Reeva and then when he had the chance to tell Baba to get help - he said "Everything's fine".

Can Baba's evidence be trusted? He was adamant that he had phoned OP first, but the phone evidence proved that it was OP who phoned Baba first.

 

[shane13]

Click on his username, click view all posts by shane13, make a BIG cup of coffee (or tea, can't decide/remember which) and enjoy! It's all in there!

Thank you TD.
Three things though.
1. Yes indeed, there's a tremendous amount obviously in all my posts.
2. It's still very far from "all in there" as far as what I've written...
3. With insullts like the one above about "Daid icke" only resuts in my not wanting to share much more, and in frequently thinking of pemanently leaving.

 

[Feynman]

Molly you are using an event/possible reason that even the defence hasn't used.
Why would you even do that?

It's like me saying that the reason OP shot RS is because SHE threatened him with an air rifle.. When nobody is saying that and it's not the state's case - so why suggest it.

The defense is still presenting evidence; the state is done presenting theirs, so I don't see the analogy. Judge Christopher Greenland, recently on TV, himself offered up the idea of OP's head injury as a possible DT strategy at this point. He shared a story that some of the bizarre behavior OP has exhibited in court is similar to that of his own son after a head injury (sadly his son eventually died). Sorry, don't have the link handy at the moment.

 

[Ncl1968]

So I wonder what sentence this judge could hand down to OP if she only finds him guilty of culpable homicide . I think she is known for tough sentences so let's hope that even the worst case scenario in terms of verdict will still bring a tough sentence .

I wonder if he will turn up for the sentencing????
I presume he will be sent home on the last day and told to come back for the sentence

 

[Zinn]

His actions after the 'fact' were more damning that anything that came before.

I'm waiting for the Standers on the cross. I believe Gerrie is as well.

Gerrie alluded to Oscar 'covering up' and trying to protect his guilty act and conscience when Oscar was on the stand. He said, "You didn't want Mr Baba there". Considering Clarice Stander was blocking Baba at the front door and running the door like a bouncer, she and her daddy have quite a few questions to answer.

Personally, I reckon Oscar wanted Reeva's body out of the house. Bags/rope etc. He wanted the Stander to take her somewhere (hospital etc) allowing him time at his home to 'clean up upstairs'; before the 'crowds' arrived.

That was his intention.

And for that alone he belongs here --------> :jail:

I've wondered if OP called Stander upon hearing the security vehicle pulling up at his house. I recall reading it only took the Standers one minute to arrive at OP's house, so they would have been traveling to his house during the conversations with Baba? Baba said he spoke with OP from within his vehicle while parked at OP's house. He saw the Standers pull up and he jumped out of his vehicle and ran behind them to OP's front door.

I'd really like to understand how the Standers arrived so quickly. Where did they live in relation to Oscar? Does anyone know?

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[wb180]

Starting at 1:14:04

I remember pulling the trigger and the rounds going into the door...

That's where the firearm was pointed [at the door]...

I did not fire deliberately...

...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..

I didn't have time to think...I wouldn't have wanted to ..shoot at someone...

[Then Nel asks--[the gun went off accidentally]

That's the opposite of what I'm saying...

What I said was that the noise coming from the bathroom made me pull the trigger...

I can remember pulling the trigger...

The firearm was aimed at the door at that time...

I didn't have time to think if I wanted to or didn't want to [shoot the people coming out of the toilet]. I heard a noise coming from inside the toilet and I discharged the firearm.

[interaction]

I'm not sure about a second...if Reeva had come out or she had spoken to me or ...I wouldn't have fired.

[interaction]

I thought the robbers were in the toilet or on the ladder.

[I fired] because I heard a noise coming from the toilet that I interpretated as someone coming out to attack me.

I started shooting at that point.

[interaction]

I'm getting confused with this accidentally or not accidentally...I've said time and time again what I perceived and what I thought. I don't understand ...it was put to me yesterday it was by accident and now it's put to me it wasn't by accident. I don't understand...I'm saying that I didn't intend to shoot. My firearm was pointed at the door because that's where I believed that somebody was. When I heard a noise, I didn't have time to think and I fired my weapon. It was an accident.


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Thursday 10 April 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

I am sure you understand him perfectly.

For me it's rambling, as we dont know if he intended to shoot or not shoot the intruder. It's mutually exclusive.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

It is a very scary thought that sends shivers down my spine to think that there could be many more intimate murders in the future where they will try this defence .
I think that's why even if it was an accident ( and IMO not ) a very tough sentence should be handed down for culpable homicide .

Not forgetting the additional Firearms Control act related charges, which has rather hefty sentences as stand alone crimes.

I don't see a suspended sentence or blanket acquittal in Oscar's future and for HIM to 'beat this' that is the only outcome he will accept.

I felt he should have tried to plea out a culpable homicide charge from the get go. But not Mr Big - only acquittal on each and every charge will be good enough for him.

It's not going to end well for him, simply because he truly believes this 'little inconvenience' will soon be over, with his reputation intact. Not guilty on all counts, and free to woo sponsors and chase his life once more.

Barry should break it to the delusional chap, that this is not going to happen - ever. His life as he knew it, is over.

 

[Emz73]

Thank you TD.
Three things though.
1. Yes indeed, there's a tremendous amount obviously in all my posts.
2. It's still very far from "all in there" as far as what I've written...
3. With insullts like the one above about "Daid icke" only resuts in my not wanting to share much more, and in frequently thinking of pemanently leaving.

I was teasing you! Sorry. Stupid humour. I've been dying to know what you've meant.

 

[kittychi]

It did look suspicious at first to me. It doesn't any more.

All the DT has to do at this point is prove that Oscar can scream like a girl and game over, IMO.

The prosecutor really doesn't have anything. He was assuming he had a simple case--woman screams, gunshots, murder.

Then Dr. Stipp came along.

BBM: They have to prove that he can scream like a grown woman...blood curdling screams, terrified for her life.

How do you supposed they plan to do that?

 

[wb180]

r

So I wonder what sentence this judge could hand down to OP if she only finds him guilty of culpable homicide . I think she is known for tough sentences so let's hope that even the worst case scenario in terms of verdict will still bring a tough sentence .

Maximum time on culpable homicide. Maximum time on ammo. Maximum time on gun discharged.
All running consecutively. Hopefully like 30 years !!!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I wonder if he will turn up for the sentencing????
I presume he will be sent home on the last day and told to come back for the sentence

I don't know but I would have thought he would be there unless things are different in SA.
Presumably he would be immediately taken into custody regardless of whether he intends to appeal any guilty verdict .

 

[wb180]

Can Baba's evidence be trusted? He was adamant that he had phoned OP first, but the phone evidence proved that it was OP who phoned Baba first.

Sure u can discount him just like OP testimony.

 

[Viper]

OP has used the words "terrified', "vulnerable", "scared", "frightened", etc. to describe his alleged state of mind on the morning of the killing.

But, during direct examination, when describing his thoughts/state of mind immediately before shooting, he testified:

"I wasn't sure if somebody was going to come out of the toilet to attack me. I wasn't sure if someone was going to come up the ladder and point a firearm in my house and start shooting. So I just stayed where I was and I kept on screaming. And then I heard a noise from inside the toilet, um, what I perceived to be somebody coming out of the toilet. Before I knew it I'd fired 4 shots at the door."

He "wasn't sure" prior to hearing the alleged noise in the toilet room that someone was going to attack him, but after hearing the alleged noise, he "perceived" someone was coming out of the toilet.

It seems to me, that if he genuinely believed that someone was coming out of the toilet room to attack him, he would have said "I was sure someone was coming out of the toilet to attack me". Instead, he merely said he "perceived" someone was "coming out of the toilet" - he didn't say to attack him, just that someone might have been coming out of the toilet.

I know some may not give much weight to the words he used, but to me they're significant, since his defense is putative self defense and his words go to his alleged state of mind prior to shooting.

IMO, not being sure there was an attacker is evidence of his state of mind, regardless of how many times he used the words terrified, vulnerable, scared, frightened, etc.

By his own testimony, he wasn't sure. He merely heard an alleged "noise" and, according to OP, before he knew it, he fired 4 shots at the door.

The above testimony begins at about 7:10 in the video below.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday 8 April 2014, Session 4 - YouTube

Hi Sorrel, I stepped away but I just saw this awesome post that you did on OPs absolute failure to even tell the court one of the fundamental things that he needed to tell them, namely he did not say that he shot four times intentionally at the attacker to prevent what he felt sure was an imminent threat to his life!

Say Goodbye, Cheerio, Au Revoir, Hasta la Vista Baby to putative self defense. It is out!

 

[DebinGA]

So I wonder what sentence this judge could hand down to OP if she only finds him guilty of culpable homicide . I think she is known for tough sentences so let's hope that even the worst case scenario in terms of verdict will still bring a tough sentence .

I have no idea, but her reputation seems sterling. I understand why OP claims screaming "Get the f-out of my house!" several times at the intruder, since that's what he thought neighbors heard him yelling at Reeva, but what's the judge to make of that admission being immediately followed by OP blasting away at the cubicle at the first slight hint the poor devil inside might be obeying his command?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Can Baba's evidence be trusted? He was adamant that he had phoned OP first, but the phone evidence proved that it was OP who phoned Baba first.

Perhaps I can assist you here. Mr Baba was giving evidence in his 2nd language.

In his mind and interpretation of what he was saying, he was in fact stating that when he called OP, it was the FIRST time they had spoken.
He discounted the call from OP's home, because no words were exchanged. (OP in any event made that call accidentally - he was looking for his friendlies, not Baba)

M'lady's home language is the same as Mr Baba's, and I believe she 'understood' what he meant.

Gerrie should have saved Baba here though, as I was immediately aware that Baba was misinterpreting all questions, and had been from the day he gave his statement. In his mind, the first time they spoke counted as the first 'call' - because talking is phone call to Mr Baba, not crying.

 

[shane13]

BBM: Shane, here in Michigan, this is called a "circle jerk." Can this be translated into Oscar Speak?

Brilliant simple question.

Yes I know the term from watching Dexter Season 2 I believe where SA Lundy used it.

The way Oscar used it, and all its complexities, and throwing Roux his own atty, under the bridge and so much more, I would have to say that there are so many parameters, that it requires hyperspace to discuss it fully. So let me just conclude by saying that we have to call it hypersphere jerk, again its in Oscar-Speak which is multi-dimensional (far more than 3 or 4).

[Def. A hypersphere is like a sphere except it is in a space with more than 3 dimensions]

 

[molly333]

I am sure you understand him perfectly.

For me it's rambling, as we dont know if he intended to shoot or not shoot the intruder. It's mutually exclusive.

I do understand what he was saying. Should I be worried? Nel was tying him in knots but this is the core of what he was saying:

"...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..
"

He's saying he had the gun for defense, not to go out and murder someone. He never wanted to kill anyone. He fired reflexively out of fear, when he heard someone coming out of the door, in self defense.

And, it was all a terrible, terrible accident.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

BBM: They have to prove that he can scream like a grown woman...blood curdling screams, terrified for her life.

How do you supposed they plan to do that?

I'm looking forward to the male/female screams that were intermingled.

I hope Roger 'Waters' Dixon's music producer can pull this off.

For anyone to believe Oscar screamed like woman, then a man, then a woman and then combined the two in a cacophony of sound........... :scared:

 

[TrueDetective]

Thank you TD.
Three things though.
1. Yes indeed, there's a tremendous amount obviously in all my posts.
2. It's still very far from "all in there" as far as what I've written...
3. With insullts like the one above about "Daid icke" only resuts in my not wanting to share much more, and in frequently thinking of pemanently leaving.

Don't you dare.
We should all know by now that what we actually see is often far smaller than what we don't (you know, like an iceberg sort of thing).

Cape has already in his brief time here backed up some of your views.

I'd say to you as I also would to a pro-defence poster (i daren't say OP supporter anymore!) who feels that they are being belittled and dont want or are too scared to post - not to take offence.
I am sure that the vast majority of members value your long standing contribution