Trial Discussion Thread #30

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  • #381
IMO, OP's family appears understandably distraught.

Since you're a newbie, you're probably not aware, but Moderators have advised that any negative commentary regarding his family's courtroom demeanor is off-limits, according to the terms of service (TOS) of websleuths. :)

BIB

I'm in agreement with this and I'm across the pond, by the way. Not an oldie, though, sorry.
 
  • #382
BBM
1. I admire your guts in telling me what I dare not do!
2. I was pleased to see Cape in effect backing me up in some of what I've said for a long time here which fell on deaf ears mostly or got me ridiculed. Even now someone is posting about Mr Baba and who called whom first.

Which is the whole point about using anything from a phone which had no chain of custody for 16 days and which should not be allowed into evidence.

At the same time I am saddened as if my logic and clear evidence of criminal acts allowed to go on with no charges and no investigation needed another person to support me!
Everyone here should have been clamoring about this...

Finally in the matter of Mr Baba and Oscar and who called whom first. if you understand...My personal vote would be to take Mr. Baba-- an obviously honest man with much to lose over Oscar "a man with no memory of his crimes", and relying on a likely doctored phone's data...I go all the way with Mr. Baba.

In this hi-tech world, with so much evil going on beneath the surface, the simple honest, brave man like Mr. Baba or Dr Stipp must be believed instead of likely doctored, criminally stolen "data."


With all due respect Shane, I think True was complimenting you and saying, don't you dare leave, in a good way. Maybe it has already been addressed as I'm playing catch up and about to head out the door.
 
  • #383
Sorry but I haven't figured out the quoting thing yet (!) but Carmelita you say 'was it reasonable for Oscar at that moment in time to feel that his and Reeva’s life were in imminent danger'.

I say no, not in the slighest, and am interested in why you believe yes, he was justified in choosing to open fire when he did. What happened to make him think he HAD to open fire to save his life? TIA
 
  • #384
With all due respect Shane, I think True was complimenting you and saying, don't you dare leave, in a good way. Maybe it has already been addressed as I'm playing catch up and about to head out the door.

Thanks C.
And I was acknowledging his guts in telling me that so strongly.
So we are all on the same page here.
thanks again.
 
  • #385
Thank you for the kind words! Ah, the magical 1994 (apart from old Eugene and his minions........oh dear, at least you have some fond memories. Delighted you enjoyed CT - I tend to agree, it's a special place - but I'm biased of course....)

The state are obliged to hand over it's entire case docket to the defense, including all witness statements, expert witness reports, EVERY SINGLE note taken, every piece of paper with notes on. It exposes it's entire case before the trial kicks off.

The defense do nothing of the sort in terms of sharing ANYTHING WHAT SO EVER with the state. The defense has a right to 'silence'. The state will not know who or what the defense will be claiming, stating, calling, using etc.

It is the advantage an accused person is afforded in our system (I find it dreadful.....on so many levels!)

This is why the defense have had a year to try and counter all the state's evidence. The state play a guessing game as to what the defense will do, and who they will call.

However, should the defense for example, call a psychologist. The state are entitled to apply to the court to re-open their case in order to rebut the evidence of said psychologist etc.

Than you Cape. I must apologize though for my lack of clarity ... because what I really wanted to know was what does the JUDGE have...

Question-rephrased:
Would each of the aforementioned affidavits and professional reports be part of the JUDGE'S body of evidence to draw upon even if the report (for example, the Mamelodi medical report) was not presented orally into evidence during the clinical phase of the trial?
 
  • #386
But this is not the question before the judge, the question before the judge is given Oscar’s state of mind with all that entails including his physical disability was it reasonable for Oscar at that moment in time to feel that his and Reeva’s life were in imminent danger and did Oscar genuinely believe he was acting to protect himself and Reeva.

The black talon bullets are meaningless if Oscar thought there was a clear and present danger, should he have unloaded his gun with less lethal ammunition? This argument doesn’t seem to be reasonable to me.
One shot or 4 shots are also inconsequential in a heat of the moment shooting. A bigger question to me is why stop at 4.

That he was able to reason has already been established, that he was not in a state of terror has not been proven.



How does one in a true state of terror have the ability to reason? E.g., if he could reason that a warning shot might ricochet and hit him, he was then cognizant of his surroundings and, I believe, of his actions.

This was no accident.
 
  • #387
How does one in a true state of terror have the ability to reason? E.g., if he could reason that a warning shot might ricochet and hit him, he was then cognizant of his surroundings and, I believe, of his actions.

This was no accident.
And if a state of terror hasn't been proven then neither has putative self-defence, which is reliant on such a state.

MOO
 
  • #388
Sorry but I haven't figured out the quoting thing yet (!) but Carmelita you say 'was it reasonable for Oscar at that moment in time to feel that his and Reeva’s life were in imminent danger'.

I say no, not in the slighest, and am interested in why you believe yes, he was justified in choosing to open fire when he did. What happened to make him think he HAD to open fire to save his life? TIA


Hi lithgow1,

I never said I thought it was reasonable. Objectively I do not think it was reasonable to open fire without clearly establishing where Reeva was located.

Do I believe Oscar was in terror at the moment he shot and pulled the trigger 4 times and really believed that an intruder was going to come out of the bathroom, I don't know. I am glad that is for M'lady to decide and not me.
 
  • #389
How does one in a true state of terror have the ability to reason? E.g., if he could reason that a warning shot might ricochet and hit him, he was then cognizant of his surroundings and, I believe, of his actions.

This was no accident.


Some people in a true state of terror can reason. It would depend what his mind was doing. There are many cases of people being terrified and still thinking clearly to get themselves out of horrific situations. Being in terror and thinking rationally are not mutually exclusive.

Amanda Berry was in terror but she still used her reasoning skills to escape a monster, she was in sheer terror the entire time she was trying to get out of the door or get someones attention though.
 
  • #390
But this is not the question before the judge, the question before the judge is given Oscar’s state of mind with all that entails including his physical disability was it reasonable for Oscar at that moment in time to feel that his and Reeva’s life were in imminent danger and did Oscar genuinely believe he was acting to protect himself and Reeva.

The black talon bullets are meaningless if Oscar thought there was a clear and present danger, should he have unloaded his gun with less lethal ammunition? This argument doesn’t seem to be reasonable to me.
One shot or 4 shots are also inconsequential in a heat of the moment shooting. A bigger question to me is why stop at 4.

That he was able to reason has already been established, that he was not in a state of terror has not been proven.

That's what I've been wondering as well.

Does anyone have minutes of the witness testifying to the screams in relation to the shots?
 
  • #391
Hi lithgow1,

I never said I thought it was reasonable. Objectively I do not think it was reasonable to open fire without clearly establishing where Reeva was located.

Do I believe Oscar was in terror at the moment he shot and pulled the trigger 4 times and really believed that an intruder was going to come out of the bathroom, I don't know. I am glad that is for M'lady to decide and not me.


I remember a post of yours on this in another thread. You haven't said his actions were reasonable, quite the opposite. In fact, iirc correctly, one of your biggest issues with this case was that OP fired at a life behind the door, correct?

So, you're okay with CH, just not convinced it was PM?
 
  • #392
Liesbeth, I believe, posted the legal definition of a reasonable person and it isn't and cannot be mitigated by any disability - I personally believe any brain injury, which is rumour at this point - would likely be included. This isn't an American courtroom - by law there is very little room for mitigation.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

That wasn't me. But I did find this:

OP will be judged on the premise “that a reasonable man in the circumstances in which the appellant found himself would have believed that his life or property was in imminent danger.”

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/

and here is a definition

“A reasonable man”

The reasonable man standard is by no means democratic in its scope; it is, contrary to popular conception, intentionally distinct from that of the "average person," who is not necessarily guaranteed to always be reasonable.

The reasonable person will weigh all of the following factors before acting:

1. the foreseeable risk of harm his actions create versus the utility of his actions;

2. the extent of the risk so created;

3. the likelihood such risk will actually cause harm to others;

4. any alternatives of lesser risk, and the costs of those alternatives.

Taking such actions requires the reasonable person to be appropriately informed, capable, aware of the law, and fair-minded. Such a person might do something extraordinary in certain circumstances, but whatever that person does or thinks, it is always reasonable.

The test for a reasonable person is an objective test. It does not consider the individual circumstances.

http://www.tarservices.co.za/South-African-Law/

Then this:

When courts judge someone by the standard of “the reasonable person”, they also take into account their physical disabilities and other vulnerabilities.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-vulnerability-relevant-case-says-expert/

and this:

The law takes into account a person's knowledge (including special skills e.g. licensed gun owner, Olympian, etc), experience, and perceptions in determining whether the individual has acted as a reasonable person would have acted in the same circumstances.

The law takes a person's physical characteristics into account in determining whether that person's conduct is negligent. Whether a person's conduct is reasonable, and therefore not negligent, is measured against a reasonably prudent person with the same physical characteristics. There are two reasons for taking physical characteristics into account. A physically impaired individual cannot be expected to conform to a standard of conduct that would be physically impossible for her to meet. On the other hand, a physically challenged person must act reasonably in light of her handicap, and she may be negligent in taking a risk that is unreasonable in light of her known physical limitations. Thus, it would be negligent for a blind person to drive an automobile.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/The+Reasonable+Person
 
  • #393
Sorry if I missed any posts. I just want to ask the forum regulars (oldies) what your opinion has been of the Pistorious's in court? The so called 'Team Oscar' - family, extended family, friends etc.

I know what folk back here are saying and a lot of it isn't pleasant of flattering to say the least. I'm just curious as to what people on the other sides of the various ponds and oceans think?

At first, I felt such sadness and I actually cried when he was crying on the stand. Then he started arguing with Nel, I remember he said " the state has changed their version lots of times" in a question to him changing his.
He sounded like my abusive ex, never accepting responsibility, blaming, word salad, long explanations, arrogant, defensive, he seemed to have no respect for the state.
Most I've talked to in the UK think he knew she was behind the door.
 
  • #394
Thanks Carmelita and I too am pleased it's someone else's decision. In addition to what you say about not establishing where RS was, he knew someone was behind the door but did not bother to find out who before unleashing a lethal rain of bullets. It would have been horrific to be subjected to that. But that aside, I am convinced he knew it was her in there. There was never any 'intruder', and his moment of terror came after he fired. It was the moment of anger and frustration immediately prior that led to this sorry and sad situation IMO.
 
  • #395
IIRC he stated that he was in a medicically induced coma. Of course that boating accident...
Did you catch his testimony. In the AM he said press reports were untrue, he was not drunk [or words to that effect.]

in the afternoon, he said he had some alcoholic beverage 'earlier in the day."

Officially they never tested his blood for ethyl. Even tthough videos show alcoholic bevrerages in the boat.

I never heard OP was in a boating accident. But I googled it when someone said OP had been in a coma. Not according to the Drs. :twocents:
 
  • #396
* can I just quickly point out that I keep getting Clarice Stander's name wrong .. I keep saying Candice and I've no idea why :blushing::facepalm: (I'm dreadful with names ..!)

Don't feel badly. IIRC, at one point we were all referring to her as Claudrey. LOL. A combination of Clarice and Audrey, because of the confusion with her correct name.
:noworries:
 
  • #397
I remember a post of yours on this in another thread. You haven't said his actions were reasonable, quite the opposite. In fact, iirc correctly, one of your biggest issues with this case was that OP fired at a life behind the door, correct?

So, you're okay with CH, just not convinced it was PM?


Mostly I am Ok with the case being decided on the evidence. In my mind the evidence this far is not indicative of a guilty of PM. I'm from a family of gun owners where there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, I am overly cautious as I would like all gun owners to be. Yes I know that is not the reality of the world.


That said I don't know if CH is proven at this point given the extenuating circumstance of Oscars disability and the ever present pervasive fear that seems to be prevalent in SA due to the frequency of home invasions. That is for the judge to decide. DO I think objectively that Oscar is guilty of CH yes. But subjectively I am on the fence. I have a huge problem with him discharging a firearm when he did not know where Reeva was.

If there really was an intruder and Oscar had killed him, I would find him not guilty, period, deadly defense and adios to the intruder. The problem for me is that I am not convinced that Oscar did not 100% believe he was defending himself and Reeva.
 
  • #398
Don't feel badly. IIRC, at one point we were all referring to her as Claudrey. LOL. A combination of Clarice and Audrey, because of the confusion with her correct name.
:noworries:


If you haven't noticed I rarely use names simply because I don't remember them even after hearing or reading them over and again.
 
  • #399
I never heard OP was in a boating accident. But I googled it when someone said OP had been in a coma. Not according to the Drs. :twocents:

according to OP
 
  • #400
Here is an article which alleges OP took acting lessons:
http://nypost.com/2014/04/20/pistoris-took-acting-lessons-before-crying-on-stand/
Pistorius took ‘acting lessons’ before crying on stand
By David K. LiApril 20, 2014 | 1:43pm
"...Allan said Pistorius’ version of events still represents a cruel, cold-hearted attitude"...
“The implication of this is that it would have been more acceptable to shoot an intruder the way you did,” Allan wrote. “Execution from behind a closed door.”...
 
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